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I was referring to controlling the tone of the piano (eg. percussive, cantabile etc), something which is particularly important in Chopin's works of music. Also, controlling the dynamic level can be a little more challenging in my opinion especially given that the touch weight of early 19th century pianos was just over half of that of later pianos. In turn, I feel that this creates a greater difficulty in achieving a perfect legato and cantabile sound where each note blends into the next.
....controlling the dynamic level can be a little more challenging in my opinion especially given that the touch weight of early 19th century pianos was just over half of that of later pianos....
I agree completely with this principle, and didn't think there was any controversy about it.
It comes into play in modern pianos too, because of the differences among them. It's one of the factors for which we have to make adjustments when we play on different pianos as performers. It's also why I prefer a somewhat firm "touch weight" (in quotes because I didn't really know the phrase) and sometimes even gladly sacrifice some ease of execution for it when I choose a piano.
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.... In turn, I feel that this creates a greater difficulty in achieving a perfect legato and cantabile sound where each note blends into the next.
That's also more of a challenge on the earlier pianos because of the lesser sustaining of each note.
Why would Liszt and Chopin have a difficult time keeping up with conservatory students of today? [...]
Some good points. Okay, but where does Rachmaninov factor in?
Alas we have so few recordings -considering the amount of music he played in concert (and look what Schnabel gave us across the 'pond') -but all of those are that of a Titan.
For what Rachmaninov recorded -and I will politely give a miss to the 2nd and 3rd concertos- no one I have ever heard has exceeded them, think Liszt's Gnomenreigen. That is positively super-human.
With Rachmaninov's miraculous technical endowment, I find it a stretch to believe that those awesome hands could not have played anything written subsequent to 1943.
Prokofiev had a go on R's G minor Prelude, but it seems oddly insecure at certain moments, particularly the descending volley of octaves. His recording of his 3rd concerto proves he was a pianist to recon with, but I should think that no one would rate his recording above what Argerich subsequently accomplished.
IMO, Prokofiev would have LOVED her interpretation.
I was referring to controlling the tone of the piano (eg. percussive, cantabile etc), something which is particularly important in Chopin's works of music. Also, controlling the dynamic level can be a little more challenging in my opinion especially given that the touch weight of early 19th century pianos was just over half of that of later pianos. In turn, I feel that this creates a greater difficulty in achieving a perfect legato and cantabile sound where each note blends into the next.
All good points. I don't have the same problems, however. I've played several period instruments and have always come away thinking, if only I had one of these pianos everything would be so much easier. The percussive quality of their tone, however, makes me happy that we've moved on. There is only so much you can do in that regard... it's simply their nature.
"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy
"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."
Found the instruments in museums in Germany and Vienna fascinating as well the period instruments in Ashburham, Ma at the museum there. Perhaps you would enjoy this.
Frederick's Historical Piano Collection
(best listened to on good speakers)
"Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination, and life to everything."
Sorry but all the above speculation is inaccurate.
According to the latest Chopin research he could not play the piano at all. On the few occasions when he "performed" it is now believed that he was using a "double". Chopin's only instrument was the kazoo on which he used to improvise his piano pieces.
According to the latest Chopin research he could not play the piano at all. On the few occasions when he "performed" it is now believed that he was using a "double". Chopin's only instrument was the kazoo on which he used to improvise his piano pieces.
'Nuff said.
(Or as George Sand used to tell him,regarding his reluctance to play in public, by choice he'd "play a silent piano in a dark room.")
As much of a shy performer as he was, I can't imagine how he could write and publish works, especially with all of his own personal feelings written into the music. Have you ever played your own writings to a friend? It's extremely embarrassing for some reason, even if you are totally content with your music. Maybe Chopin knew his own genius so well that he didn't worry about being judged.
Why would Liszt and Chopin have a difficult time keeping up with conservatory students of today? Why would pianists like Yuja Wang, for example, blow them off the stage? The piano itself is vastly different. While it's true that the piano Liszt knew was one that began to resemble our modern piano closely they were still no match for the instruments we play now. Anyone putting forth ideas stating otherwise simply don't know what they're talking about. It's as simple as that. In addition, the repertoire (and as an obvious result the technique required) has developed WITH the piano and because of it in many cases (just as with Beethoven, for example). The conservatory student is that much further ahead because of Schoenberg, Prokofiev, Rachmaninov, Stravinsky, Ligeti, Barber, etc., etc. Ask many professors (many of whom are concert artists themselves) where they stand in relation to their students technically. Liszt, and Chopin, wouldn't "wow" anyone with their technique today. There are simply too many 9 year olds running circles around Czerny, Hanon, Plaidy and the likes for anyone who listens to many pianists to be overly impressed with but the most refined technical skill. I'm not dumping on Franz and Freddy, but some of you need to pull your collective heads out of the drool box and realise that the piano world has moved on considerably since those boys ruled things.
Stores, Let's consider a few things especially in the case of Liszt. He lived until 1886, by which time the piano was more or less in its modern form. Yes, there are some differences, and the action may have been a bit lighter but in effect, he was playing on modern style instruments toward the end of his life. Of course, he was not in his prime then, but this was not the Erard/Pleyel era anymore. Liszt was clearly in the very upper echelon of pianists of his time, and probably was at the top of that group. This was a time when the piano was very popular, many people played, and there was intense competition to be the "best" -- and Liszt came out on top probably by reason of his innate abilities coupled with his intense work ethic and personality. If you think of the distribution of talent plus work ethic, he clearly occupied the very far end of that distribution, and human abilities being distributed as they are on the normal curve, there is little reason to think he would not still be in the upper echelon today. Might he need some time to brush up on a new Steinway were he to be reincarnated into today's world? Learn that modern repertoire just as the "conservatory kids" did? No doubt, but I see little reason to discount the idea that in a short period of time he'd be schooling them.
As much of a shy performer as he was, I can't imagine how he could write and publish works, especially with all of his own personal feelings written into the music. Have you ever played your own writings to a friend? It's extremely embarrassing for some reason, even if you are totally content with your music. Maybe Chopin knew his own genius so well that he didn't worry about being judged.
Chopin grew up in what was essentially a boarding house, playing for his large immediate family, his father's pupils and the neighbors. He also played in public from a very early age, before he was old enough to have become self conscious. From all accounts he received nothing but petting and praise for these performances and was even given a gold watch by a beautiful diva and a diamond ring by the tsar of Russia. Without this intense early socialization and these first very positive performance experiences I doubt if someone of his temperament could've managed to function well in society, much less perform brillantly in public.
Thank you for the link to that video Lilylady! I am extremely interested in period instruments and as well as pursuing a career as a pianist/composer it is my intention to collect and restore period instruments in the future too. I find them to be so beautiful, and I absolutely love the tone which they produce. I suppose it helps that my main areas of interest are Field and Chopin too, even though Field played most frequently on Tischner pianos... I would love to get my hands on one of those!
Why would Liszt and Chopin have a difficult time keeping up with conservatory students of today? Why would pianists like Yuja Wang, for example, blow them off the stage? The piano itself is vastly different. While it's true that the piano Liszt knew was one that began to resemble our modern piano closely they were still no match for the instruments we play now. Anyone putting forth ideas stating otherwise simply don't know what they're talking about. It's as simple as that. In addition, the repertoire (and as an obvious result the technique required) has developed WITH the piano and because of it in many cases (just as with Beethoven, for example). The conservatory student is that much further ahead because of Schoenberg, Prokofiev, Rachmaninov, Stravinsky, Ligeti, Barber, etc., etc. Ask many professors (many of whom are concert artists themselves) where they stand in relation to their students technically. Liszt, and Chopin, wouldn't "wow" anyone with their technique today. There are simply too many 9 year olds running circles around Czerny, Hanon, Plaidy and the likes for anyone who listens to many pianists to be overly impressed with but the most refined technical skill. I'm not dumping on Franz and Freddy, but some of you need to pull your collective heads out of the drool box and realise that the piano world has moved on considerably since those boys ruled things.
I tend to agree. It's like how athletes are. The ones today are faster ,stronger, and more physically imposing than those from previous eras. They have access to better teaching and tools as well.
I tend to agree. It's like how athletes are. The ones today are faster ,stronger, and more physically imposing than those from previous eras. They have access to better teaching and tools as well.
Probably as true of the average run of conservatory pianists as it is of athletes but Franz and Freddy were hardly the average run. Outliers will always be outliers.
I tend to agree. It's like how athletes are. The ones today are faster ,stronger, and more physically imposing than those from previous eras. They have access to better teaching and tools as well.
Probably as true of the average run of conservatory pianists as it is of athletes but Franz and Freddy were hardly the average run. Outliers will always be outliers.
Absolutely true.. but world records are meant to be broken.
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.
I tend to agree. It's like how athletes are. The ones today are faster ,stronger, and more physically imposing than those from previous eras. They have access to better teaching and tools as well.
Probably as true of the average run of conservatory pianists as it is of athletes but Franz and Freddy were hardly the average run. Outliers will always be outliers.
You're quite right that Franz and Freddy were hardly the average run. It's quite obvious, however, that the vast majority of you have no idea what is going on in conservatories today and well before that also. I don't, by the way, mean you, Frycek, specifically... I'm just speaking about the general PW population. Someone above mentioned that Liszt was more or less playing on modern pianos toward the end of his life... the key phrase here is "more or less". I have access to an 1885 and 1888 Steinway on a regular basis and even with a few modern replacement parts and regulation they're no match for today's pianos. I get the feeling many of you feel I'm knocking Franz and Fred, but I'm not. I'm just stating that they would have (especially in Fred's case) a very difficult time with the instruments we know and that for as developed as either of their techniques may have been there are not only conservatory kids, but high school kids with technique to stand up to most anyone (and many of them run circles around anyone you've ever heard save a few).
"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy
"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."
...not only conservatory kids, but high school kids with technique to stand up to most anyone (and many of them run circles around anyone you've ever heard save a few).
I know one of those, and it is rather scary, hehe.
I have access to an 1885 and 1888 Steinway on a regular basis and even with a few modern replacement parts and regulation they're no match for today's pianos.
I own an 1887 Mathushek Orchestral, which was Steinway's major American rival way back when, and I totally agree. It's extremely temperamental even restored, and the action is much different from my other more "modern" (1937) piano.
I do think you're right in that the average contemporary pianist is probably much better than the average run of pianist fifty or a hundred years ago, though there were probably more of them. The bar has been raised dramatically. It's a more select population for one thing, more serious, more invested with a much smaller proportion of casual low level players. I know that the average student now does levels and grades and likely has a much better qualified teacher than I had. Literally fifty years ago I was taught to play from a hymnal by an old lady who couldn't play much better herself. She was the only "piano teacher" in the county and just about every little girl with any pretensions to gentility in the area took at least a few lessons from her at some point. This may sound like a whole nother world to most of you but it was pretty normal back then away from major metropolitan areas.
I have access to an 1885 and 1888 Steinway on a regular basis and even with a few modern replacement parts and regulation they're no match for today's pianos.
I own an 1887 Mathushek Orchestral, which was Steinway's major American rival way back when, and I totally agree. It's extremely temperamental even restored, and the action is much different from my other more "modern" (1937) piano.
I do think you're right in that the average contemporary pianist is probably much better than the average run of pianist fifty or a hundred years ago, though there were probably more of them. The bar has been raised dramatically. It's a more select population for one thing, more serious, more invested with a much smaller proportion of casual low level players. I know that the average student now does levels and grades and likely has a much better qualified teacher than I had. Literally fifty years ago I was taught to play from a hymnal by an old lady who couldn't play much better herself. She was the only "piano teacher" in the county and just about every little girl with any pretensions to gentility in the area took at least a few lessons from her at some point. This may sound like a whole nother world to most of you but it was pretty normal back then away from major metropolitan areas.
Good points, Frycek. The only thing I'd disagree with is the number of pianists then and now. For those not aware, the explosion in China is an amazing thing and the kids coming out of their system(s) are often something to behold.
"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy
"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."
For those who can't be bothered to read, basically when he was 9 Lang Lang's piano teacher said he wasn't very good, so his father demanded the he kill himself to remove the shame from the family.
and sometimes even gladly sacrifice some ease of execution for it when I choose a piano.
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