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Tuning the piano in 432 Hz #1929840
07/20/12 05:13 PM
07/20/12 05:13 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,205
Jakobstad, Finland
pppat Offline OP
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Jakobstad, Finland
Has anybody seen this webpage?
http://www.omega432.com/concertpitch432.html


Patrick Wingren, RPT
Wingren Pianistik
https://facebook.com/wingrenpianistik
Concert Tuner at Schauman Hall, Jakobstad, Finland
Musician, arranger, composer

- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.
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Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: pppat] #1929848
07/20/12 05:28 PM
07/20/12 05:28 PM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 155
Texas
N
notbach Offline
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Texas
I read up to 'spiritual freedom'. [what, no eyeroll smiley?]


Actively working on:
Bach - Two-part Invention No. 14
Chopin - Prelude in E minor - Op. 28, No. 4
Notenbuch für Nannerl - Tempo di menuetto in F (Anonymous)
Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: pppat] #1929897
07/20/12 06:17 PM
07/20/12 06:17 PM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,544
Canberra, ACT, Australia
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Chris Leslie Offline
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If everybody plays together at 432 Hz then I fear that the whole Earth will resonate uncontrollably and break apart. Verdi had this concern as well, which is why he insisted on this Requiem to be performed a little bit higher in pitch to be safe.

Last edited by Chris Leslie; 07/20/12 06:17 PM.

Chris Leslie ARPT
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au
Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: pppat] #1929965
07/20/12 08:43 PM
07/20/12 08:43 PM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,539
PA
daniokeeper Offline
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An interesting interview...

I remember a few years back when I got into a discussion about Western tuning vs Eastern tuning with an Indian sitarist. According to him, the instrumentalists tune their instruments to where the vocalist's preferred pitch is on that particular day, rather than tuning to some fixed pitch like we do here in the West.


Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.morethanpianos.com
(semi-retired)
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Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: daniokeeper] #1929994
07/20/12 10:04 PM
07/20/12 10:04 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,497
Vancouver, Canada
DoelKees Offline

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Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted by daniokeeper
An interesting interview...

I remember a few years back when I got into a discussion about Western tuning vs Eastern tuning with an Indian sitarist. According to him, the instrumentalists tune their instruments to where the vocalist's preferred pitch is on that particular day, rather than tuning to some fixed pitch like we do here in the West.

I work with traditional Persian singers and it's the same.
We decide to play some piece in, say, C major. Depending on the mood and diet of the singer that may translate into anything from Bb major to D major, so I always come prepared with transposing instruments.

Did you know that the A=440 standard was first proposed (and rejected at the time) by Nazi Propaganda Minister Joseph Goebbels in 1939?

Kees

Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: DoelKees] #1929997
07/20/12 10:12 PM
07/20/12 10:12 PM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,539
PA
daniokeeper Offline
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Originally Posted by DoelKees
Originally Posted by daniokeeper
An interesting interview...

I remember a few years back when I got into a discussion about Western tuning vs Eastern tuning with an Indian sitarist. According to him, the instrumentalists tune their instruments to where the vocalist's preferred pitch is on that particular day, rather than tuning to some fixed pitch like we do here in the West.

I work with traditional Persian singers and it's the same.
We decide to play some piece in, say, C major. Depending on the mood and diet of the singer that may translate into anything from Bb major to D major, so I always come prepared with transposing instruments.

Did you know that the A=440 standard was first proposed (and rejected at the time) by Nazi Propaganda Minister Joseph Goebbels in 1939?

Kees
[Emphasis added]


I did not.

The plot thickens smile


Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.morethanpianos.com
(semi-retired)
Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: daniokeeper] #1930013
07/20/12 10:48 PM
07/20/12 10:48 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,497
Vancouver, Canada
DoelKees Offline

2000 Post Club Member
DoelKees  Offline

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Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted by daniokeeper
Originally Posted by DoelKees
Originally Posted by daniokeeper
An interesting interview...

I remember a few years back when I got into a discussion about Western tuning vs Eastern tuning with an Indian sitarist. According to him, the instrumentalists tune their instruments to where the vocalist's preferred pitch is on that particular day, rather than tuning to some fixed pitch like we do here in the West.

I work with traditional Persian singers and it's the same.
We decide to play some piece in, say, C major. Depending on the mood and diet of the singer that may translate into anything from Bb major to D major, so I always come prepared with transposing instruments.

Did you know that the A=440 standard was first proposed (and rejected at the time) by Nazi Propaganda Minister Joseph Goebbels in 1939?

Kees
[Emphasis added]


I did not.

The plot thickens smile

Now that we got that out in the open and given the allied victory of 1945, is there any reason we should still put up with this fascist A=440 standard?

While we're at it: the ET standard is the result of a conspiracy by the Illuminati that were also responsible for the 9/11 attacks, and results in our brainwaves being subtly altered by unequal beating intervals in the mystical twelfth root of 2 ratio which makes us become puppets of the secret rulers of the earth. Did you know that the twelfth root of 2 is two to the power 1/12 and if you mistype it on your calculator you will get 2/12 which is 0.16666666666666 and 666 is the number of the devil? If we'd all start tuning at A=432 in UT we'll finally be liberated from the Illuminati and their extraterrestrial brainwashing backers.

The big question is how does the CHAS tuning fit into this? Is it aligned with humanity of with the extraterrestrials?

Kees


Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: pppat] #1930018
07/20/12 11:02 PM
07/20/12 11:02 PM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,623
Philadelphia area
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Dave B Offline
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Philadelphia area
Kees, You raise interesting questions. Check out www.love528.com for answers to all these questions.


"Imagine it in all its primatic colorings, its counterpart in our souls - our souls that are great pianos whose strings, of honey and of steel, the divisions of the rainbow set twanging, loosing on the air great novels of adventure!" - William Carlos Williams
Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: DoelKees] #1930058
07/21/12 01:21 AM
07/21/12 01:21 AM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,301
KZ
Maximillyan Online embarrased
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Posts: 2,301
KZ
Originally Posted by DoelKees
Originally Posted by daniokeeper
Originally Posted by DoelKees
Originally Posted by daniokeeper
An interesting interview...

I remember a few years back when I got into a discussion about Western tuning vs Eastern tuning with an Indian sitarist. According to him, the instrumentalists tune their instruments to where the vocalist's preferred pitch is on that particular day, rather than tuning to some fixed pitch like we do here in the West.

I work with traditional Persian singers and it's the same.
We decide to play some piece in, say, C major. Depending on the mood and diet of the singer that may translate into anything from Bb major to D major, so I always come prepared with transposing instruments.

Did you know that the A=440 standard was first proposed (and rejected at the time) by Nazi Propaganda Minister Joseph Goebbels in 1939?

Kees
[Emphasis added]


I did not.

The plot thickens smile

Now that we got that out in the open and given the allied victory of 1945, is there any reason we should still put up with this fascist A=440 standard?

While we're at it: the ET standard is the result of a conspiracy by the Illuminati that were also responsible for the 9/11 attacks, and results in our brainwaves being subtly altered by unequal beating intervals in the mystical twelfth root of 2 ratio which makes us become puppets of the secret rulers of the earth. Did you know that the twelfth root of 2 is two to the power 1/12 and if you mistype it on your calculator you will get 2/12 which is 0.16666666666666 and 666 is the number of the devil? If we'd all start tuning at A=432 in UT we'll finally be liberated from the Illuminati and their extraterrestrial brainwashing backers.

The big question is how does the CHAS tuning fit into this? Is it aligned with humanity of with the extraterrestrials?

Kees


Kees,maybe you're right, the Nazi regime was imposed on us, except this is YOU wrote has also Masonic attributes ( 2/12 which is 0.16666666666666 and 666 is the number of the devil?), but can not be undone overnight, had already created the people in these hertzes. Because thrown out all from history (music created A = 440). That would be silly, I'm think

Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: pppat] #1930067
07/21/12 01:41 AM
07/21/12 01:41 AM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,301
KZ
Maximillyan Online embarrased
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432 or 440? The ear of a normal person would not notice much difference. If you turn two digital tuner at the same time, we do not hear more than 1-2 beats per second between them. In terms of the discussion that it is better or worse is absurd. Any aesthetic of sound has the right to exist

Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: Maximillyan] #1930072
07/21/12 02:27 AM
07/21/12 02:27 AM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,539
PA
daniokeeper Offline
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Originally Posted by Maximillyan
432 or 440? The ear of a normal person would not notice much difference. If you turn two digital tuner at the same time, we do not hear more than 1-2 beats per second between them. In terms of the discussion that it is better or worse is absurd. Any aesthetic of sound has the right to exist
[Emphasis added]

I think it would be 8 beats per second. smile

Originally Posted by Maximillyan
432 or 440? The ear of a normal person would not notice much difference. If you turn two digital tuner at the same time, we do not hear more than 1-2 beats per second between them. In terms of the discussion that it is better or worse is absurd. Any aesthetic of sound has the right to exist
[Emphasis added]

I completely agree. smile


Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.morethanpianos.com
(semi-retired)
Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: daniokeeper] #1930074
07/21/12 02:35 AM
07/21/12 02:35 AM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,301
KZ
Maximillyan Online embarrased
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Originally Posted by daniokeeper
Originally Posted by Maximillyan
432 or 440? The ear of a normal person would not notice much difference. If you turn two digital tuner at the same time, we do not hear more than 1-2 beats per second between them. In terms of the discussion that it is better or worse is absurd. Any aesthetic of sound has the right to exist
[Emphasis added]

I think it would be 8 beats per second.

daniokeeper,you're right, certainly 8!

Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: pppat] #1930091
07/21/12 04:14 AM
07/21/12 04:14 AM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,481
Niagara Region, On. Canada
Emmery Offline
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Emmery  Offline
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Posts: 2,481
Niagara Region, On. Canada
Anything other than 440 is simply a conspiracy to confuse people with perfect pitch.

Those who want a lower pitch can drive away from the concert at high speed and enjoy the doppler transposition.


Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region
Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: Chris Leslie] #1930092
07/21/12 04:19 AM
07/21/12 04:19 AM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,593
Strong, Maine
David Jenson Offline
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Posts: 2,593
Strong, Maine
Originally Posted by Chris Leslie
If everybody plays together at 432 Hz then I fear that the whole Earth will resonate uncontrollably and break apart.


Well, that certainly does it for me then. 'No more of that dangerous 432 Hz tuning! No sir! 'Don't want the Earth breaking apart 'cause of something I did. blush


David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
-----
Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: pppat] #1930156
07/21/12 08:53 AM
07/21/12 08:53 AM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
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Olek Offline
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France
The loss in solicitation of wire raise the iH if the piano is tuned lower.

I also have seen some "heartbeat tuning" .

Each one may tune his own piano to the rhythm of its own heart, that sound reasonable.

If it allow to make a few bucks I vote for it wink


Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: DoelKees] #1930625
07/22/12 11:01 AM
07/22/12 11:01 AM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,013
Madison, WI USA
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Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
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Originally Posted by DoelKees

Did you know that the A=440 standard was first proposed (and rejected at the time) by Nazi Propaganda Minister Joseph Goebbels in 1939?

Kees


One of my colleagues often calls ET the "Nazi" temperament, the "new order" to be imposed on all music with an iron fist and a heavy boot. It reminds me of the phrase from George Orwell's "1984": "You want a vision of the future, Winston? Imagine a boot stepping on a face forever." Funny how the ET only crowd likes to practice the same revisionist history [of tuning] written about in that novel. ET is in tune. ET is now, has always been and will always be the only way to tune a piano.

I have seen something before about 437 pitch as being somehow in harmony with the universe or some such wild theory. Interesting how the Europeans keep wanting to push the pitch higher, not lower.

From time to time, this link to the UK Piano Page has been brought up. It is always fascinating to read:

http://www.piano-tuners.org/history/pitch.html


Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com
Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: pppat] #1930691
07/22/12 12:52 PM
07/22/12 12:52 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
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Olek Offline
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Higher pitch : more power, less iH, cleaner tone.

On old pianos the higher the tension the higher the wire elasticity is, is the more set the pin (up to some point of course but I find less easy to set the tuning if the tone is 1/2 tone low, for instance)

Last edited by Kamin; 07/22/12 12:56 PM.

Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: pppat] #1930694
07/22/12 12:58 PM
07/22/12 12:58 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,263
Vancouver B. C. Canada
Silverwood Pianos Offline
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There was nothing “imposed onto music” but rather it was the choice of mainstream to go a particular way in this performance art form.

It was an international conference that recommended A above middle C to be tuned at 440Hz in ’39.

The International Organization for Standardization took this up in 1955 as a technical standard and then reaffirmed in 1975 as ISO 16.


Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."
Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: pppat] #1930734
07/22/12 02:30 PM
07/22/12 02:30 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
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Olek Offline
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France
Yes Dan, that is the "standard", but I gave a call to Selmer to know about, and they told me they "tune" their brass instruments to 442 when they are to be used in Europe, and to 440 for USA..
I dont know if it only is done with the reeds or if the body of the instrument differs (that would be a problem for musicians)

The same happens with xylophone or metallophone, the pitch is often engraved on the last blade, for that reason.

Those are just habits no one can say really where thy come from.

That said, in Paris the orchestra of Pierre Boulez plays at 440

(Orchestre INtercontemporain) The only place (but the occasionalvisit of an American orchestra or sometime pianist) where the rented pianos are to be tuned 440 - hopefully they have their own instruments for concerts and studios, but the company that rent them concert grand occasionally keep some at 440 to avoid instability problems.



Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: pppat] #1930742
07/22/12 02:50 PM
07/22/12 02:50 PM
Joined: Jun 2010
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Loren D Offline
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Well for my next solo piano CD, I'm going to give everyone an aneurism by tuning to 432 in EBVT. smile


DiGiorgi Piano Service
http://www.digiorgipiano.com
Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: Silverwood Pianos] #1930780
07/22/12 03:55 PM
07/22/12 03:55 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,497
Vancouver, Canada
DoelKees Offline

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Originally Posted by Silverwood Pianos
It was an international conference that recommended A above middle C to be tuned at 440Hz in ’39.

as far as I know the "international" conference was organized by Joseph Goebbels and it involved just England and Germany, France was not invited. Its purpose was to get England to adapt the A440 standard that was declared in Germany at that time.

Kees

Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: pppat] #1930806
07/22/12 04:34 PM
07/22/12 04:34 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,481
Niagara Region, On. Canada
Emmery Offline
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432 Hz is used by many holistic and alternative medicine practitioners for healing these days. They claim it to have benefits in DNA repair and better balanced chakras.
They also claim that 440 produces opposite effects, both damaging DNA and unbalancing the chakras.
Some conspiracy theorists have made claims the Nazi's made the push for this standard fully knowing these effects in order to weaken their future opponents. (For me, this doesn't make sense because they adopted it themselves). Bear in mind most dial tones we hear everyday on the phone are composed of a 440/444 and corresponding C528 tuning.

Last edited by Emmery; 07/22/12 04:36 PM.

Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region
Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT] #1930866
07/22/12 06:40 PM
07/22/12 06:40 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 551
London, England
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Phil D Offline
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London, England
Originally Posted by Bill Bremmer RPT
Originally Posted by DoelKees

Did you know that the A=440 standard was first proposed (and rejected at the time) by Nazi Propaganda Minister Joseph Goebbels in 1939?

Kees


One of my colleagues often calls ET the "Nazi" temperament, the "new order" to be imposed on all music with an iron fist and a heavy boot. It reminds me of the phrase from George Orwell's "1984": "You want a vision of the future, Winston? Imagine a boot stepping on a face forever." Funny how the ET only crowd likes to practice the same revisionist history [of tuning] written about in that novel. ET is in tune. ET is now, has always been and will always be the only way to tune a piano.


Hah! Finally, we have Godwin's Law in the ET debate. I wondered how long it would take.

We have to stop the discussion now, you realise? wink

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: pppat] #1930915
07/22/12 08:55 PM
07/22/12 08:55 PM
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Posts: 1,539
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daniokeeper Offline
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I just remembered an instance of a variable pitch reference used in Western music.

About 25 years ago, I took a course offered at our local community college on how to play the "Fretted Appalachian Mountain Lap Dulcimer." It was quite a long time ago and my memory may be off, but as I recall, we were taught that it was standard practice to tune to a "democratic D." In other words, D was wherever the group decided it was. If we were to use another reference note, it would also be democratic.

Edit: A short vid I found on YouTube re tuning the Fretted Appalachian Mountain Lap Dulcimer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7JPx2Er58k

Last edited by daniokeeper; 07/23/12 12:03 AM.

Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.morethanpianos.com
(semi-retired)
Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: daniokeeper] #1931027
07/23/12 01:05 AM
07/23/12 01:05 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,417
Rockford, IL
Cinnamonbear Offline
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Beautiful vid, Joe!

Since Godwin's law has been invoked, and dulcimers cited, let me link to another OT vid, this, a mesmerizing autoharp performance:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwpnFjlTSwU&feature=youtu.be


I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.
Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: Emmery] #1931147
07/23/12 08:11 AM
07/23/12 08:11 AM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,593
Strong, Maine
David Jenson Offline
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David Jenson  Offline
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Strong, Maine
Originally Posted by Emmery
432 Hz is used by many holistic and alternative medicine practitioners for healing these days. They claim it to have benefits in DNA repair and better balanced chakras.
They also claim that 440 produces opposite effects, both damaging DNA and unbalancing the chakras.

Yikes! ' Not gonna' let my wife see this. She'll know immediately whats ailing my chakras (whatever that is) and hound me to seek treatment and stop tuning at A-440.


David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
-----
Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: pppat] #1931527
07/23/12 08:48 PM
07/23/12 08:48 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,205
Jakobstad, Finland
pppat Offline OP
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Jakobstad, Finland
Here in Finland A=442 is pretty much set in stone, Just as Isaac says, the wind instruments used here are 442 instruments. The link in my OP was sent to me by an englishman who doesn't like our +2 Hz over here where he himself lives nowadays smile He is a wind player, but I think he still uses his 440 instruments.


Patrick Wingren, RPT
Wingren Pianistik
https://facebook.com/wingrenpianistik
Concert Tuner at Schauman Hall, Jakobstad, Finland
Musician, arranger, composer

- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.
Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: Cinnamonbear] #1931534
07/23/12 09:12 PM
07/23/12 09:12 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,013
Madison, WI USA
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Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
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Originally Posted by Cinnamonbear
Beautiful vid, Joe!

Since Godwin's law has been invoked, and dulcimers cited, let me link to another OT vid, this, a mesmerizing autoharp performance:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwpnFjlTSwU&feature=youtu.be


I found a nice performance of "Greensleeves" on the Mountain Dulcimer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyMZqLjTHcQ&feature=fvwrel


Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com
Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: pppat] #1931555
07/23/12 10:06 PM
07/23/12 10:06 PM
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Loren D Offline
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Originally Posted by pppat
Here in Finland A=442 is pretty much set in stone, Just as Isaac says, the wind instruments used here are 442 instruments. The link in my OP was sent to me by an englishman who doesn't like our +2 Hz over here where he himself lives nowadays smile He is a wind player, but I think he still uses his 440 instruments.


Ack. Can't stand sharp! If it were up to me, everything would be pitched at 435 still. Give me mellow.


DiGiorgi Piano Service
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Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: pppat] #1931576
07/23/12 10:40 PM
07/23/12 10:40 PM
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daniokeeper Offline
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Andy and Bill,

Absolutely beautiful vids.

I see that the autoharp in the Andy's vid is "a single-key diatonic autoharp." So, apparently it could be tuned out of ET with purer intervals with no "penalty", since transposition and/or modulation to other keys are not possible.


Joe Gumbosky
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Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: daniokeeper] #1931726
07/24/12 08:43 AM
07/24/12 08:43 AM
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Madison, WI USA
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Originally Posted by daniokeeper
Andy and Bill,

Absolutely beautiful vids.

I see that the autoharp in the Andy's vid is "a single-key diatonic autoharp." So, apparently it could be tuned out of ET with purer intervals with no "penalty", since transposition and/or modulation to other keys are not possible.


I have a Cajun style button accordion for which every interval can be tuned absolutely pure, if desired. The maker had actually discussed tuning with Dr. Al Sanderson. The accordion is diatonic, so it has no equivalent of the "black keys". The Do-Mi-So-Do notes are "push" notes with the bellows and the Re-Fa-Mi-m7 notes are "pull" notes.

Therefore, the M3's 4ths and 5ths can all be tuned perfectly pure, if desired. However, I drew up a special tuning chart for the maker to follow. Instead of the M3's being perfectly pure, I had them tuned 1 cent wide (still sounding virtually pure but with some spacial effect in them). Instead of pure 5ths, I actually had them tuned 2 cents wide. I also had 2 cents added to the higher octave reeds.

This gave the instrument this uncanny "big" sound! All of the professional players loved it when they tried it! Many of them wanted their instruments re-tuned that way. The maker kept my chart and did it upon request but he has since passed away, so no more accordions have been made that way ever since.

The traditional way of tuning these accordions has always been to use a strobe tuner or Korg type device and keep the 4ths & 5ths equally tempered but to flatten the M3's by 15 cents. This gives those instruments a kind of "flat" and slightly "off key" sound which is entirely unnecessary.

No matter how I tried to explain what I had done, the maker could not understand it. He thought of the ET 4ths & 5ths as "pure" when they are not. A 14 cent wide M3 sounds very harsh on those instruments, so the arbitrary choice to narrow them by 15 cents actually makes them 1 cent narrow. Again, no matter how I tried to explain it, he could not understand. He said that the way he normally tuned was a tradition that he did not want to break even though he was quite thoroughly impressed by what I had him do.

I tried to talk to some other makers about what could be done to make the accordion sound better but was rebuffed by all of them. They seemed to be suspicious that some "Yankee" from up North would have any idea of what might make their music sound better. The thing that warmed my accordion make up to me was first of all, that I wanted to buy one of his instruments but that I could also communicate with him in his mother tongue, Cajun French.

When I tried to speak to some of the other makers in Cajun French, I got one of two responses: they either didn't speak that language fluently or replied in heavily accented English, "Whehuh y'all larn dat?" I replied, "By listening" but got no further with them. One of them even shooed me out saying, "W'ain chall git back up whehah ya belong and stop trahin' to change ah culchah! We don' need no cahpet bagguhs 'roun' hyah!"


Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com
Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: pppat] #1931753
07/24/12 09:58 AM
07/24/12 09:58 AM
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Olek Offline
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Many accordions made in Europe now are tuned with the accordion tuning software from Dirk's (Honner being the more reputed) can be used for all reed instruments as harmonicas

http://www.dirksprojects.nl/index.php?Lan=english&Page=Tuner/accordion_tuner_22.php



Thats for the experience in developing tuning devices; he begun with those 10 years ago.

I like what propose the piano tuning software, I said it yet.

What is keen in that software is the way the "justness" is find, by iterations and consonance rules.

Last edited by Kamin; 07/24/12 10:12 AM.

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Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT] #1931762
07/24/12 10:13 AM
07/24/12 10:13 AM
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shirley, MA
jim ialeggio Offline
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Originally Posted by Bill Bremmer RPT

I have a Cajun style button accordion...

Therefore, the M3's 4ths and 5ths can all be tuned perfectly pure, if desired. However, I drew up a special tuning chart for the maker to follow. Instead of the M3's being perfectly pure, I had them tuned 1 cent wide (still sounding virtually pure but with some spacial effect in them). Instead of pure 5ths, I actually had them tuned 2 cents wide. I also had 2 cents added to the higher octave reeds.


But there are at least 2 banks of reeds for each individual note, and on most accordions, especially diatonic boxes, the 2 simultaneous sounding reeds are tuned some degree of "wet" meaning non-unison. Its the classic "accordion" out of tune musette sound. I would think the actual tempering is so obscured by the "wet" sound that it would not be particularly clear what one did.

I play a diatonic button accordion, or at least did for a very long time. It is a 3 row custom box, which I have 1 D row, 1 G row and 1C# row. 3 reeds /note when all the stops are on. I had 2 reeds tuned pure, or at least as pure as a reed can be tuned. Kind of irish style, but not quite...too limiting for my chromatic mind. In any case I had it tuned quite "dry", but "dry" is still pretty "wet" relatively speaking.

Jim Ialeggio



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Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: Chris Leslie] #1931766
07/24/12 10:26 AM
07/24/12 10:26 AM
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Nor California Sacramento area
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Dale Fox Offline
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Originally Posted by Chris Leslie
If everybody plays together at 432 Hz then I fear that the whole Earth will resonate uncontrollably and break apart. Verdi had this concern as well, which is why he insisted on this Requiem to be performed a little bit higher in pitch to be safe.


I thought it was because he hated tenors.


Dale Fox
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Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: jim ialeggio] #1931849
07/24/12 02:08 PM
07/24/12 02:08 PM
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Madison, WI USA
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Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
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Originally Posted by jim ialeggio
Originally Posted by Bill Bremmer RPT

I have a Cajun style button accordion...

Therefore, the M3's 4ths and 5ths can all be tuned perfectly pure, if desired. However, I drew up a special tuning chart for the maker to follow. Instead of the M3's being perfectly pure, I had them tuned 1 cent wide (still sounding virtually pure but with some spacial effect in them). Instead of pure 5ths, I actually had them tuned 2 cents wide. I also had 2 cents added to the higher octave reeds.


But there are at least 2 banks of reeds for each individual note, and on most accordions, especially diatonic boxes, the 2 simultaneous sounding reeds are tuned some degree of "wet" meaning non-unison. Its the classic "accordion" out of tune musette sound. I would think the actual tempering is so obscured by the "wet" sound that it would not be particularly clear what one did.

I play a diatonic button accordion, or at least did for a very long time. It is a 3 row custom box, which I have 1 D row, 1 G row and 1C# row. 3 reeds /note when all the stops are on. I had 2 reeds tuned pure, or at least as pure as a reed can be tuned. Kind of irish style, but not quite...too limiting for my chromatic mind. In any case I had it tuned quite "dry", but "dry" is still pretty "wet" relatively speaking.

Jim Ialeggio



Jim,

The Cajuns don't like the "wet" sound so the unison reeds are tuned as purely as possible. The Zydeco musicians from the same region on the other hand, often use full keyboard accordions with the "wet" sound or if they use a diatonic accordion, they also have it tuned "wet". The "wet" sound can also be simulated from a "dry" tuned diatonic accordion by pulling some of the high reed stops half way. I am not sure how that works but I guess it makes them sound a little flat.


Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com
Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: pppat] #1940205
08/10/12 07:54 AM
08/10/12 07:54 AM
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On the GOST 24262-89 standard, pianos should be tuned in 440+5 Hz.

Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: DoelKees] #1940383
08/10/12 03:11 PM
08/10/12 03:11 PM
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>> It was an international conference that recommended A above middle C to be tuned at 440Hz in ’39.<<

Hmm, I am looking at a number of forks here, (440's and 523.3's) and several of them are stamped with "official pitch of A.F.of M. (American Federation of Musicians) 1917, Adopted by U.S. Government 1920".
I believe that 440 had been recommended long before 1939.
Regards,

Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: pppat] #2749536
07/05/18 02:21 PM
07/05/18 02:21 PM
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Bump.

I've been asked by an Holistic practitioner to tune their old 90 year old piano down to A432.
I feel this is a shame as I've tuned it for a few years now and its fairly stable at A440. The customer is adamant that i tune it down to A432 even after I've advised them against it.

Does anyone have a specific procedure for pitch lowering or is it the same as raising ?



Last edited by michaelopolis; 07/05/18 02:22 PM.
Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: pppat] #2749538
07/05/18 02:51 PM
07/05/18 02:51 PM
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I was tuning my piano and my door was kicked in by the tuning police, trying to impose 440 on me.

Last edited by johnstaf; 07/05/18 02:55 PM.
Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: pppat] #2749554
07/05/18 03:49 PM
07/05/18 03:49 PM
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Scotland
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David Boyce Online content
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Quote
an Holistic practitioner


A quack, a charlatan, a mountebank?

In my experience (in the UK), medically qualified General Practitioners practice holistically, and "alternative" or "complementary" practitioners do not.

I would doubt the ability of your 432 Hz person to beneficially alter the disease process of any person with any health condition anywhere at any time.

But I am going off-topic.

Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: pppat] #2749555
07/05/18 03:52 PM
07/05/18 03:52 PM
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The customer is adamant that i tune it down to A432 even after I've advised them against it.


They can't make you. You can politely decline, and walk away.

Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: David Boyce] #2749561
07/05/18 04:24 PM
07/05/18 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by David Boyce
Quote
The customer is adamant that i tune it down to A432 even after I've advised them against it.


They can't make you. You can politely decline, and walk away.


As I have commented many times before, that used to be the standard (or rather 423) until it was changed some time in the 70's or 80's - I wasn't playing at the time. But listen to old records and you will hear the difference. As Abba's Benny commented when listening to one of their records a few years ago - to do with Mama Mia I think - 'why are you playing it in C#?'

Last edited by Colin Miles; 07/05/18 04:26 PM. Reason: corrections

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Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: David Boyce] #2749564
07/05/18 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by David Boyce
Quote
an Holistic practitioner


A quack, a charlatan, a mountebank?

In my experience (in the UK), medically qualified General Practitioners practice holistically, and "alternative" or "complementary" practitioners do not.

I would doubt the ability of your 432 Hz person to beneficially alter the disease process of any person with any health condition anywhere at any time.

But I am going off-topic.



Thanks David, I've been through this with the person and explained as much as i could about the stability of the instrument and why we tune to A440 but they still want it lower in pitch believing that it will sound better. I've tried to explain it won't sound any better to no avail, in fact almost pleading with them.

Regarding the customer, lets just say, they have a lot of ideas and concepts that are pretty "far out there".I wont make fun of them on a public forum.

Bottom line I offer a service to people and I have rent to pay and i want them to be happy. The piano will be ok.

Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: pppat] #2749583
07/05/18 06:39 PM
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this current 432 business is awfully silly mind you.

Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: pppat] #2749590
07/05/18 07:57 PM
07/05/18 07:57 PM
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Just tell her that if she doesn't have it tuned it will reach 432 all by itself. smile

Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: johnstaf] #2749593
07/05/18 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by johnstaf
Just tell her that if she doesn't have it tuned it will reach 432 all by itself. smile


Haha , it certainly will eventually

Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: pppat] #2749636
07/06/18 01:05 AM
07/06/18 01:05 AM
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Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: pppat] #2749839
07/06/18 06:42 PM
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Quote
As I have commented many times before, that used to be the standard (or rather 423) until it was changed some time in the 70's or 80's - I wasn't playing at the time. But listen to old records and you will hear the difference. As Abba's Benny commented when listening to one of their records a few years ago - to do with Mama Mia I think - 'why are you playing it in C#?'



Where are you getting the idea of the 70s or 80s, Colin? That doesn't accord with various sources, on the adoption of A440. Sources put it much earlier than the 1970s.

A factor with vinyl LP records as that individual turntables may not be revolving at the correct 33.3 rpm. I have piano records from the 50s and 60s which are at A440. (My turntable is at the correct speed).

Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: pppat] #2750027
07/07/18 01:22 PM
07/07/18 01:22 PM
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I don't see what the problem is. Its simply the opposite of a pitch raise except you will have to go over it more times. You tell them that it will require the equivalent of four tunings to get it there (reasonably stable). If they are willing to pay for it...who cares? Now if they want you to do it for the usual fee...THAT'S a problem I would walk away from.

Pwg

Last edited by P W Grey; 07/07/18 01:23 PM.

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