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Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: daniokeeper] #1931726
07/24/12 07:43 AM
07/24/12 07:43 AM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,014
Madison, WI USA
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Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
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Originally Posted by daniokeeper
Andy and Bill,

Absolutely beautiful vids.

I see that the autoharp in the Andy's vid is "a single-key diatonic autoharp." So, apparently it could be tuned out of ET with purer intervals with no "penalty", since transposition and/or modulation to other keys are not possible.


I have a Cajun style button accordion for which every interval can be tuned absolutely pure, if desired. The maker had actually discussed tuning with Dr. Al Sanderson. The accordion is diatonic, so it has no equivalent of the "black keys". The Do-Mi-So-Do notes are "push" notes with the bellows and the Re-Fa-Mi-m7 notes are "pull" notes.

Therefore, the M3's 4ths and 5ths can all be tuned perfectly pure, if desired. However, I drew up a special tuning chart for the maker to follow. Instead of the M3's being perfectly pure, I had them tuned 1 cent wide (still sounding virtually pure but with some spacial effect in them). Instead of pure 5ths, I actually had them tuned 2 cents wide. I also had 2 cents added to the higher octave reeds.

This gave the instrument this uncanny "big" sound! All of the professional players loved it when they tried it! Many of them wanted their instruments re-tuned that way. The maker kept my chart and did it upon request but he has since passed away, so no more accordions have been made that way ever since.

The traditional way of tuning these accordions has always been to use a strobe tuner or Korg type device and keep the 4ths & 5ths equally tempered but to flatten the M3's by 15 cents. This gives those instruments a kind of "flat" and slightly "off key" sound which is entirely unnecessary.

No matter how I tried to explain what I had done, the maker could not understand it. He thought of the ET 4ths & 5ths as "pure" when they are not. A 14 cent wide M3 sounds very harsh on those instruments, so the arbitrary choice to narrow them by 15 cents actually makes them 1 cent narrow. Again, no matter how I tried to explain it, he could not understand. He said that the way he normally tuned was a tradition that he did not want to break even though he was quite thoroughly impressed by what I had him do.

I tried to talk to some other makers about what could be done to make the accordion sound better but was rebuffed by all of them. They seemed to be suspicious that some "Yankee" from up North would have any idea of what might make their music sound better. The thing that warmed my accordion make up to me was first of all, that I wanted to buy one of his instruments but that I could also communicate with him in his mother tongue, Cajun French.

When I tried to speak to some of the other makers in Cajun French, I got one of two responses: they either didn't speak that language fluently or replied in heavily accented English, "Whehuh y'all larn dat?" I replied, "By listening" but got no further with them. One of them even shooed me out saying, "W'ain chall git back up whehah ya belong and stop trahin' to change ah culchah! We don' need no cahpet bagguhs 'roun' hyah!"


Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com
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Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: pppat] #1931753
07/24/12 08:58 AM
07/24/12 08:58 AM
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Posts: 9,230
France
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Olek Offline
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Many accordions made in Europe now are tuned with the accordion tuning software from Dirk's (Honner being the more reputed) can be used for all reed instruments as harmonicas

http://www.dirksprojects.nl/index.php?Lan=english&Page=Tuner/accordion_tuner_22.php



Thats for the experience in developing tuning devices; he begun with those 10 years ago.

I like what propose the piano tuning software, I said it yet.

What is keen in that software is the way the "justness" is find, by iterations and consonance rules.

Last edited by Kamin; 07/24/12 09:12 AM.

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I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT] #1931762
07/24/12 09:13 AM
07/24/12 09:13 AM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 944
shirley, MA
jim ialeggio Offline
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shirley, MA
Originally Posted by Bill Bremmer RPT

I have a Cajun style button accordion...

Therefore, the M3's 4ths and 5ths can all be tuned perfectly pure, if desired. However, I drew up a special tuning chart for the maker to follow. Instead of the M3's being perfectly pure, I had them tuned 1 cent wide (still sounding virtually pure but with some spacial effect in them). Instead of pure 5ths, I actually had them tuned 2 cents wide. I also had 2 cents added to the higher octave reeds.


But there are at least 2 banks of reeds for each individual note, and on most accordions, especially diatonic boxes, the 2 simultaneous sounding reeds are tuned some degree of "wet" meaning non-unison. Its the classic "accordion" out of tune musette sound. I would think the actual tempering is so obscured by the "wet" sound that it would not be particularly clear what one did.

I play a diatonic button accordion, or at least did for a very long time. It is a 3 row custom box, which I have 1 D row, 1 G row and 1C# row. 3 reeds /note when all the stops are on. I had 2 reeds tuned pure, or at least as pure as a reed can be tuned. Kind of irish style, but not quite...too limiting for my chromatic mind. In any case I had it tuned quite "dry", but "dry" is still pretty "wet" relatively speaking.

Jim Ialeggio



Jim Ialeggio
www.grandpianosolutions.com
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Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: Chris Leslie] #1931766
07/24/12 09:26 AM
07/24/12 09:26 AM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,205
Nor California Sacramento area
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Dale Fox Offline
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Nor California Sacramento area
Originally Posted by Chris Leslie
If everybody plays together at 432 Hz then I fear that the whole Earth will resonate uncontrollably and break apart. Verdi had this concern as well, which is why he insisted on this Requiem to be performed a little bit higher in pitch to be safe.


I thought it was because he hated tenors.


Dale Fox
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Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: jim ialeggio] #1931849
07/24/12 01:08 PM
07/24/12 01:08 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,014
Madison, WI USA
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Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
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Originally Posted by jim ialeggio
Originally Posted by Bill Bremmer RPT

I have a Cajun style button accordion...

Therefore, the M3's 4ths and 5ths can all be tuned perfectly pure, if desired. However, I drew up a special tuning chart for the maker to follow. Instead of the M3's being perfectly pure, I had them tuned 1 cent wide (still sounding virtually pure but with some spacial effect in them). Instead of pure 5ths, I actually had them tuned 2 cents wide. I also had 2 cents added to the higher octave reeds.


But there are at least 2 banks of reeds for each individual note, and on most accordions, especially diatonic boxes, the 2 simultaneous sounding reeds are tuned some degree of "wet" meaning non-unison. Its the classic "accordion" out of tune musette sound. I would think the actual tempering is so obscured by the "wet" sound that it would not be particularly clear what one did.

I play a diatonic button accordion, or at least did for a very long time. It is a 3 row custom box, which I have 1 D row, 1 G row and 1C# row. 3 reeds /note when all the stops are on. I had 2 reeds tuned pure, or at least as pure as a reed can be tuned. Kind of irish style, but not quite...too limiting for my chromatic mind. In any case I had it tuned quite "dry", but "dry" is still pretty "wet" relatively speaking.

Jim Ialeggio



Jim,

The Cajuns don't like the "wet" sound so the unison reeds are tuned as purely as possible. The Zydeco musicians from the same region on the other hand, often use full keyboard accordions with the "wet" sound or if they use a diatonic accordion, they also have it tuned "wet". The "wet" sound can also be simulated from a "dry" tuned diatonic accordion by pulling some of the high reed stops half way. I am not sure how that works but I guess it makes them sound a little flat.


Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com
Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: pppat] #1940205
08/10/12 06:54 AM
08/10/12 06:54 AM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 11
USSR,Leningrad.
Alexandr Offline
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On the GOST 24262-89 standard, pianos should be tuned in 440+5 Hz.

Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: DoelKees] #1940383
08/10/12 02:11 PM
08/10/12 02:11 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,810
Tennessee
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Ed Foote Offline
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Tennessee
>> It was an international conference that recommended A above middle C to be tuned at 440Hz in ’39.<<

Hmm, I am looking at a number of forks here, (440's and 523.3's) and several of them are stamped with "official pitch of A.F.of M. (American Federation of Musicians) 1917, Adopted by U.S. Government 1920".
I believe that 440 had been recommended long before 1939.
Regards,

Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: pppat] #2749536
07/05/18 01:21 PM
07/05/18 01:21 PM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 129
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michaelopolis Offline
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Bump.

I've been asked by an Holistic practitioner to tune their old 90 year old piano down to A432.
I feel this is a shame as I've tuned it for a few years now and its fairly stable at A440. The customer is adamant that i tune it down to A432 even after I've advised them against it.

Does anyone have a specific procedure for pitch lowering or is it the same as raising ?



Last edited by michaelopolis; 07/05/18 01:22 PM.
Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: pppat] #2749538
07/05/18 01:51 PM
07/05/18 01:51 PM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 456
Dublin
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johnstaf Online crying
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Dublin
I was tuning my piano and my door was kicked in by the tuning police, trying to impose 440 on me.

Last edited by johnstaf; 07/05/18 01:55 PM.
Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: pppat] #2749554
07/05/18 02:49 PM
07/05/18 02:49 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,547
Scotland
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David Boyce Offline
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Quote
an Holistic practitioner


A quack, a charlatan, a mountebank?

In my experience (in the UK), medically qualified General Practitioners practice holistically, and "alternative" or "complementary" practitioners do not.

I would doubt the ability of your 432 Hz person to beneficially alter the disease process of any person with any health condition anywhere at any time.

But I am going off-topic.

Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: pppat] #2749555
07/05/18 02:52 PM
07/05/18 02:52 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,547
Scotland
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David Boyce Offline
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Quote
The customer is adamant that i tune it down to A432 even after I've advised them against it.


They can't make you. You can politely decline, and walk away.

Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: David Boyce] #2749561
07/05/18 03:24 PM
07/05/18 03:24 PM
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 492
South Wales
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Colin Miles Offline
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Originally Posted by David Boyce
Quote
The customer is adamant that i tune it down to A432 even after I've advised them against it.


They can't make you. You can politely decline, and walk away.


As I have commented many times before, that used to be the standard (or rather 423) until it was changed some time in the 70's or 80's - I wasn't playing at the time. But listen to old records and you will hear the difference. As Abba's Benny commented when listening to one of their records a few years ago - to do with Mama Mia I think - 'why are you playing it in C#?'

Last edited by Colin Miles; 07/05/18 03:26 PM. Reason: corrections

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South Wales, UK
Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: David Boyce] #2749564
07/05/18 03:43 PM
07/05/18 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by David Boyce
Quote
an Holistic practitioner


A quack, a charlatan, a mountebank?

In my experience (in the UK), medically qualified General Practitioners practice holistically, and "alternative" or "complementary" practitioners do not.

I would doubt the ability of your 432 Hz person to beneficially alter the disease process of any person with any health condition anywhere at any time.

But I am going off-topic.



Thanks David, I've been through this with the person and explained as much as i could about the stability of the instrument and why we tune to A440 but they still want it lower in pitch believing that it will sound better. I've tried to explain it won't sound any better to no avail, in fact almost pleading with them.

Regarding the customer, lets just say, they have a lot of ideas and concepts that are pretty "far out there".I wont make fun of them on a public forum.

Bottom line I offer a service to people and I have rent to pay and i want them to be happy. The piano will be ok.

Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: pppat] #2749583
07/05/18 05:39 PM
07/05/18 05:39 PM
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michaelopolis Offline
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this current 432 business is awfully silly mind you.

Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: pppat] #2749590
07/05/18 06:57 PM
07/05/18 06:57 PM
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Dublin
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johnstaf Online crying
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Just tell her that if she doesn't have it tuned it will reach 432 all by itself. smile

Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: johnstaf] #2749593
07/05/18 07:08 PM
07/05/18 07:08 PM
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michaelopolis Offline
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Originally Posted by johnstaf
Just tell her that if she doesn't have it tuned it will reach 432 all by itself. smile


Haha , it certainly will eventually

Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: pppat] #2749636
07/06/18 12:05 AM
07/06/18 12:05 AM
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Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: pppat] #2749839
07/06/18 05:42 PM
07/06/18 05:42 PM
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David Boyce Offline
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Quote
As I have commented many times before, that used to be the standard (or rather 423) until it was changed some time in the 70's or 80's - I wasn't playing at the time. But listen to old records and you will hear the difference. As Abba's Benny commented when listening to one of their records a few years ago - to do with Mama Mia I think - 'why are you playing it in C#?'



Where are you getting the idea of the 70s or 80s, Colin? That doesn't accord with various sources, on the adoption of A440. Sources put it much earlier than the 1970s.

A factor with vinyl LP records as that individual turntables may not be revolving at the correct 33.3 rpm. I have piano records from the 50s and 60s which are at A440. (My turntable is at the correct speed).

Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: pppat] #2750027
07/07/18 12:22 PM
07/07/18 12:22 PM
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P W Grey Offline
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I don't see what the problem is. Its simply the opposite of a pitch raise except you will have to go over it more times. You tell them that it will require the equivalent of four tunings to get it there (reasonably stable). If they are willing to pay for it...who cares? Now if they want you to do it for the usual fee...THAT'S a problem I would walk away from.

Pwg

Last edited by P W Grey; 07/07/18 12:23 PM.

Peter W. Grey, RPT
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pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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