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Tuning the piano in 432 Hz #1929840
07/20/12 05:13 PM
07/20/12 05:13 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,205
Jakobstad, Finland
pppat Offline OP
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Jakobstad, Finland
Has anybody seen this webpage?
http://www.omega432.com/concertpitch432.html


Patrick Wingren, RPT
Wingren Pianistik
https://facebook.com/wingrenpianistik
Concert Tuner at Schauman Hall, Jakobstad, Finland
Musician, arranger, composer

- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.
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Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: pppat] #1929848
07/20/12 05:28 PM
07/20/12 05:28 PM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 155
Texas
N
notbach Offline
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Texas
I read up to 'spiritual freedom'. [what, no eyeroll smiley?]


Actively working on:
Bach - Two-part Invention No. 14
Chopin - Prelude in E minor - Op. 28, No. 4
Notenbuch für Nannerl - Tempo di menuetto in F (Anonymous)
Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: pppat] #1929897
07/20/12 06:17 PM
07/20/12 06:17 PM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,536
Canberra, ACT, Australia
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Chris Leslie Offline
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If everybody plays together at 432 Hz then I fear that the whole Earth will resonate uncontrollably and break apart. Verdi had this concern as well, which is why he insisted on this Requiem to be performed a little bit higher in pitch to be safe.

Last edited by Chris Leslie; 07/20/12 06:17 PM.

Chris Leslie ARPT
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au
Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: pppat] #1929965
07/20/12 08:43 PM
07/20/12 08:43 PM
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Posts: 1,530
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daniokeeper Offline
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An interesting interview...

I remember a few years back when I got into a discussion about Western tuning vs Eastern tuning with an Indian sitarist. According to him, the instrumentalists tune their instruments to where the vocalist's preferred pitch is on that particular day, rather than tuning to some fixed pitch like we do here in the West.


Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.morethanpianos.com
(semi-retired)
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Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: daniokeeper] #1929994
07/20/12 10:04 PM
07/20/12 10:04 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,492
Vancouver, Canada
DoelKees Offline

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Originally Posted by daniokeeper
An interesting interview...

I remember a few years back when I got into a discussion about Western tuning vs Eastern tuning with an Indian sitarist. According to him, the instrumentalists tune their instruments to where the vocalist's preferred pitch is on that particular day, rather than tuning to some fixed pitch like we do here in the West.

I work with traditional Persian singers and it's the same.
We decide to play some piece in, say, C major. Depending on the mood and diet of the singer that may translate into anything from Bb major to D major, so I always come prepared with transposing instruments.

Did you know that the A=440 standard was first proposed (and rejected at the time) by Nazi Propaganda Minister Joseph Goebbels in 1939?

Kees

Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: DoelKees] #1929997
07/20/12 10:12 PM
07/20/12 10:12 PM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,530
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daniokeeper Offline
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Originally Posted by DoelKees
Originally Posted by daniokeeper
An interesting interview...

I remember a few years back when I got into a discussion about Western tuning vs Eastern tuning with an Indian sitarist. According to him, the instrumentalists tune their instruments to where the vocalist's preferred pitch is on that particular day, rather than tuning to some fixed pitch like we do here in the West.

I work with traditional Persian singers and it's the same.
We decide to play some piece in, say, C major. Depending on the mood and diet of the singer that may translate into anything from Bb major to D major, so I always come prepared with transposing instruments.

Did you know that the A=440 standard was first proposed (and rejected at the time) by Nazi Propaganda Minister Joseph Goebbels in 1939?

Kees
[Emphasis added]


I did not.

The plot thickens smile


Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.morethanpianos.com
(semi-retired)
Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: daniokeeper] #1930013
07/20/12 10:48 PM
07/20/12 10:48 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,492
Vancouver, Canada
DoelKees Offline

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DoelKees  Offline

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Originally Posted by daniokeeper
Originally Posted by DoelKees
Originally Posted by daniokeeper
An interesting interview...

I remember a few years back when I got into a discussion about Western tuning vs Eastern tuning with an Indian sitarist. According to him, the instrumentalists tune their instruments to where the vocalist's preferred pitch is on that particular day, rather than tuning to some fixed pitch like we do here in the West.

I work with traditional Persian singers and it's the same.
We decide to play some piece in, say, C major. Depending on the mood and diet of the singer that may translate into anything from Bb major to D major, so I always come prepared with transposing instruments.

Did you know that the A=440 standard was first proposed (and rejected at the time) by Nazi Propaganda Minister Joseph Goebbels in 1939?

Kees
[Emphasis added]


I did not.

The plot thickens smile

Now that we got that out in the open and given the allied victory of 1945, is there any reason we should still put up with this fascist A=440 standard?

While we're at it: the ET standard is the result of a conspiracy by the Illuminati that were also responsible for the 9/11 attacks, and results in our brainwaves being subtly altered by unequal beating intervals in the mystical twelfth root of 2 ratio which makes us become puppets of the secret rulers of the earth. Did you know that the twelfth root of 2 is two to the power 1/12 and if you mistype it on your calculator you will get 2/12 which is 0.16666666666666 and 666 is the number of the devil? If we'd all start tuning at A=432 in UT we'll finally be liberated from the Illuminati and their extraterrestrial brainwashing backers.

The big question is how does the CHAS tuning fit into this? Is it aligned with humanity of with the extraterrestrials?

Kees


Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: pppat] #1930018
07/20/12 11:02 PM
07/20/12 11:02 PM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,620
Philadelphia area
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Dave B Offline
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Kees, You raise interesting questions. Check out www.love528.com for answers to all these questions.


"Imagine it in all its primatic colorings, its counterpart in our souls - our souls that are great pianos whose strings, of honey and of steel, the divisions of the rainbow set twanging, loosing on the air great novels of adventure!" - William Carlos Williams
Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: DoelKees] #1930058
07/21/12 01:21 AM
07/21/12 01:21 AM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,277
KZ
Maximillyan Offline
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Maximillyan  Offline
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KZ
Originally Posted by DoelKees
Originally Posted by daniokeeper
Originally Posted by DoelKees
Originally Posted by daniokeeper
An interesting interview...

I remember a few years back when I got into a discussion about Western tuning vs Eastern tuning with an Indian sitarist. According to him, the instrumentalists tune their instruments to where the vocalist's preferred pitch is on that particular day, rather than tuning to some fixed pitch like we do here in the West.

I work with traditional Persian singers and it's the same.
We decide to play some piece in, say, C major. Depending on the mood and diet of the singer that may translate into anything from Bb major to D major, so I always come prepared with transposing instruments.

Did you know that the A=440 standard was first proposed (and rejected at the time) by Nazi Propaganda Minister Joseph Goebbels in 1939?

Kees
[Emphasis added]


I did not.

The plot thickens smile

Now that we got that out in the open and given the allied victory of 1945, is there any reason we should still put up with this fascist A=440 standard?

While we're at it: the ET standard is the result of a conspiracy by the Illuminati that were also responsible for the 9/11 attacks, and results in our brainwaves being subtly altered by unequal beating intervals in the mystical twelfth root of 2 ratio which makes us become puppets of the secret rulers of the earth. Did you know that the twelfth root of 2 is two to the power 1/12 and if you mistype it on your calculator you will get 2/12 which is 0.16666666666666 and 666 is the number of the devil? If we'd all start tuning at A=432 in UT we'll finally be liberated from the Illuminati and their extraterrestrial brainwashing backers.

The big question is how does the CHAS tuning fit into this? Is it aligned with humanity of with the extraterrestrials?

Kees


Kees,maybe you're right, the Nazi regime was imposed on us, except this is YOU wrote has also Masonic attributes ( 2/12 which is 0.16666666666666 and 666 is the number of the devil?), but can not be undone overnight, had already created the people in these hertzes. Because thrown out all from history (music created A = 440). That would be silly, I'm think

Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: pppat] #1930067
07/21/12 01:41 AM
07/21/12 01:41 AM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,277
KZ
Maximillyan Offline
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432 or 440? The ear of a normal person would not notice much difference. If you turn two digital tuner at the same time, we do not hear more than 1-2 beats per second between them. In terms of the discussion that it is better or worse is absurd. Any aesthetic of sound has the right to exist

Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: Maximillyan] #1930072
07/21/12 02:27 AM
07/21/12 02:27 AM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,530
PA
daniokeeper Offline
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Originally Posted by Maximillyan
432 or 440? The ear of a normal person would not notice much difference. If you turn two digital tuner at the same time, we do not hear more than 1-2 beats per second between them. In terms of the discussion that it is better or worse is absurd. Any aesthetic of sound has the right to exist
[Emphasis added]

I think it would be 8 beats per second. smile

Originally Posted by Maximillyan
432 or 440? The ear of a normal person would not notice much difference. If you turn two digital tuner at the same time, we do not hear more than 1-2 beats per second between them. In terms of the discussion that it is better or worse is absurd. Any aesthetic of sound has the right to exist
[Emphasis added]

I completely agree. smile


Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.morethanpianos.com
(semi-retired)
Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: daniokeeper] #1930074
07/21/12 02:35 AM
07/21/12 02:35 AM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,277
KZ
Maximillyan Offline
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Originally Posted by daniokeeper
Originally Posted by Maximillyan
432 or 440? The ear of a normal person would not notice much difference. If you turn two digital tuner at the same time, we do not hear more than 1-2 beats per second between them. In terms of the discussion that it is better or worse is absurd. Any aesthetic of sound has the right to exist
[Emphasis added]

I think it would be 8 beats per second.

daniokeeper,you're right, certainly 8!

Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: pppat] #1930091
07/21/12 04:14 AM
07/21/12 04:14 AM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,481
Niagara Region, On. Canada
Emmery Offline
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Niagara Region, On. Canada
Anything other than 440 is simply a conspiracy to confuse people with perfect pitch.

Those who want a lower pitch can drive away from the concert at high speed and enjoy the doppler transposition.


Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region
Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: Chris Leslie] #1930092
07/21/12 04:19 AM
07/21/12 04:19 AM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,585
Strong, Maine
David Jenson Offline
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Strong, Maine
Originally Posted by Chris Leslie
If everybody plays together at 432 Hz then I fear that the whole Earth will resonate uncontrollably and break apart.


Well, that certainly does it for me then. 'No more of that dangerous 432 Hz tuning! No sir! 'Don't want the Earth breaking apart 'cause of something I did. blush


David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
-----
Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: pppat] #1930156
07/21/12 08:53 AM
07/21/12 08:53 AM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
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Olek Offline
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France
The loss in solicitation of wire raise the iH if the piano is tuned lower.

I also have seen some "heartbeat tuning" .

Each one may tune his own piano to the rhythm of its own heart, that sound reasonable.

If it allow to make a few bucks I vote for it wink


Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: DoelKees] #1930625
07/22/12 11:01 AM
07/22/12 11:01 AM
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Madison, WI USA
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Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
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Originally Posted by DoelKees

Did you know that the A=440 standard was first proposed (and rejected at the time) by Nazi Propaganda Minister Joseph Goebbels in 1939?

Kees


One of my colleagues often calls ET the "Nazi" temperament, the "new order" to be imposed on all music with an iron fist and a heavy boot. It reminds me of the phrase from George Orwell's "1984": "You want a vision of the future, Winston? Imagine a boot stepping on a face forever." Funny how the ET only crowd likes to practice the same revisionist history [of tuning] written about in that novel. ET is in tune. ET is now, has always been and will always be the only way to tune a piano.

I have seen something before about 437 pitch as being somehow in harmony with the universe or some such wild theory. Interesting how the Europeans keep wanting to push the pitch higher, not lower.

From time to time, this link to the UK Piano Page has been brought up. It is always fascinating to read:

http://www.piano-tuners.org/history/pitch.html


Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com
Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: pppat] #1930691
07/22/12 12:52 PM
07/22/12 12:52 PM
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Posts: 9,230
France
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Olek Offline
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Higher pitch : more power, less iH, cleaner tone.

On old pianos the higher the tension the higher the wire elasticity is, is the more set the pin (up to some point of course but I find less easy to set the tuning if the tone is 1/2 tone low, for instance)

Last edited by Kamin; 07/22/12 12:56 PM.

Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: pppat] #1930694
07/22/12 12:58 PM
07/22/12 12:58 PM
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Vancouver B. C. Canada
Silverwood Pianos Offline
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There was nothing “imposed onto music” but rather it was the choice of mainstream to go a particular way in this performance art form.

It was an international conference that recommended A above middle C to be tuned at 440Hz in ’39.

The International Organization for Standardization took this up in 1955 as a technical standard and then reaffirmed in 1975 as ISO 16.


Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."
Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: pppat] #1930734
07/22/12 02:30 PM
07/22/12 02:30 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
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Olek Offline
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Yes Dan, that is the "standard", but I gave a call to Selmer to know about, and they told me they "tune" their brass instruments to 442 when they are to be used in Europe, and to 440 for USA..
I dont know if it only is done with the reeds or if the body of the instrument differs (that would be a problem for musicians)

The same happens with xylophone or metallophone, the pitch is often engraved on the last blade, for that reason.

Those are just habits no one can say really where thy come from.

That said, in Paris the orchestra of Pierre Boulez plays at 440

(Orchestre INtercontemporain) The only place (but the occasionalvisit of an American orchestra or sometime pianist) where the rented pianos are to be tuned 440 - hopefully they have their own instruments for concerts and studios, but the company that rent them concert grand occasionally keep some at 440 to avoid instability problems.



Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: pppat] #1930742
07/22/12 02:50 PM
07/22/12 02:50 PM
Joined: Jun 2010
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Loren D Offline
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Well for my next solo piano CD, I'm going to give everyone an aneurism by tuning to 432 in EBVT. smile


DiGiorgi Piano Service
http://www.digiorgipiano.com
Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: Silverwood Pianos] #1930780
07/22/12 03:55 PM
07/22/12 03:55 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,492
Vancouver, Canada
DoelKees Offline

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Originally Posted by Silverwood Pianos
It was an international conference that recommended A above middle C to be tuned at 440Hz in ’39.

as far as I know the "international" conference was organized by Joseph Goebbels and it involved just England and Germany, France was not invited. Its purpose was to get England to adapt the A440 standard that was declared in Germany at that time.

Kees

Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: pppat] #1930806
07/22/12 04:34 PM
07/22/12 04:34 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,481
Niagara Region, On. Canada
Emmery Offline
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432 Hz is used by many holistic and alternative medicine practitioners for healing these days. They claim it to have benefits in DNA repair and better balanced chakras.
They also claim that 440 produces opposite effects, both damaging DNA and unbalancing the chakras.
Some conspiracy theorists have made claims the Nazi's made the push for this standard fully knowing these effects in order to weaken their future opponents. (For me, this doesn't make sense because they adopted it themselves). Bear in mind most dial tones we hear everyday on the phone are composed of a 440/444 and corresponding C528 tuning.

Last edited by Emmery; 07/22/12 04:36 PM.

Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region
Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT] #1930866
07/22/12 06:40 PM
07/22/12 06:40 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
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London, England
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Phil D Offline
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London, England
Originally Posted by Bill Bremmer RPT
Originally Posted by DoelKees

Did you know that the A=440 standard was first proposed (and rejected at the time) by Nazi Propaganda Minister Joseph Goebbels in 1939?

Kees


One of my colleagues often calls ET the "Nazi" temperament, the "new order" to be imposed on all music with an iron fist and a heavy boot. It reminds me of the phrase from George Orwell's "1984": "You want a vision of the future, Winston? Imagine a boot stepping on a face forever." Funny how the ET only crowd likes to practice the same revisionist history [of tuning] written about in that novel. ET is in tune. ET is now, has always been and will always be the only way to tune a piano.


Hah! Finally, we have Godwin's Law in the ET debate. I wondered how long it would take.

We have to stop the discussion now, you realise? wink

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: pppat] #1930915
07/22/12 08:55 PM
07/22/12 08:55 PM
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Posts: 1,530
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daniokeeper Offline
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I just remembered an instance of a variable pitch reference used in Western music.

About 25 years ago, I took a course offered at our local community college on how to play the "Fretted Appalachian Mountain Lap Dulcimer." It was quite a long time ago and my memory may be off, but as I recall, we were taught that it was standard practice to tune to a "democratic D." In other words, D was wherever the group decided it was. If we were to use another reference note, it would also be democratic.

Edit: A short vid I found on YouTube re tuning the Fretted Appalachian Mountain Lap Dulcimer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7JPx2Er58k

Last edited by daniokeeper; 07/23/12 12:03 AM.

Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.morethanpianos.com
(semi-retired)
Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: daniokeeper] #1931027
07/23/12 01:05 AM
07/23/12 01:05 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,411
Rockford, IL
Cinnamonbear Offline
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Beautiful vid, Joe!

Since Godwin's law has been invoked, and dulcimers cited, let me link to another OT vid, this, a mesmerizing autoharp performance:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwpnFjlTSwU&feature=youtu.be


I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.
Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: Emmery] #1931147
07/23/12 08:11 AM
07/23/12 08:11 AM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,585
Strong, Maine
David Jenson Offline
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Strong, Maine
Originally Posted by Emmery
432 Hz is used by many holistic and alternative medicine practitioners for healing these days. They claim it to have benefits in DNA repair and better balanced chakras.
They also claim that 440 produces opposite effects, both damaging DNA and unbalancing the chakras.

Yikes! ' Not gonna' let my wife see this. She'll know immediately whats ailing my chakras (whatever that is) and hound me to seek treatment and stop tuning at A-440.


David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
-----
Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: pppat] #1931527
07/23/12 08:48 PM
07/23/12 08:48 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,205
Jakobstad, Finland
pppat Offline OP
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Jakobstad, Finland
Here in Finland A=442 is pretty much set in stone, Just as Isaac says, the wind instruments used here are 442 instruments. The link in my OP was sent to me by an englishman who doesn't like our +2 Hz over here where he himself lives nowadays smile He is a wind player, but I think he still uses his 440 instruments.


Patrick Wingren, RPT
Wingren Pianistik
https://facebook.com/wingrenpianistik
Concert Tuner at Schauman Hall, Jakobstad, Finland
Musician, arranger, composer

- - - -
Dedicated to learning the craft of tuning. Getting better.
Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: Cinnamonbear] #1931534
07/23/12 09:12 PM
07/23/12 09:12 PM
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Posts: 4,013
Madison, WI USA
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Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
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Posts: 4,013
Madison, WI USA
Originally Posted by Cinnamonbear
Beautiful vid, Joe!

Since Godwin's law has been invoked, and dulcimers cited, let me link to another OT vid, this, a mesmerizing autoharp performance:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwpnFjlTSwU&feature=youtu.be


I found a nice performance of "Greensleeves" on the Mountain Dulcimer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyMZqLjTHcQ&feature=fvwrel


Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com
Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: pppat] #1931555
07/23/12 10:06 PM
07/23/12 10:06 PM
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,628
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Loren D Offline
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Loren D  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,628
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Originally Posted by pppat
Here in Finland A=442 is pretty much set in stone, Just as Isaac says, the wind instruments used here are 442 instruments. The link in my OP was sent to me by an englishman who doesn't like our +2 Hz over here where he himself lives nowadays smile He is a wind player, but I think he still uses his 440 instruments.


Ack. Can't stand sharp! If it were up to me, everything would be pitched at 435 still. Give me mellow.


DiGiorgi Piano Service
http://www.digiorgipiano.com
Re: Tuning the piano in 432 Hz [Re: pppat] #1931576
07/23/12 10:40 PM
07/23/12 10:40 PM
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Posts: 1,530
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daniokeeper Offline
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daniokeeper  Offline
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Posts: 1,530
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Andy and Bill,

Absolutely beautiful vids.

I see that the autoharp in the Andy's vid is "a single-key diatonic autoharp." So, apparently it could be tuned out of ET with purer intervals with no "penalty", since transposition and/or modulation to other keys are not possible.


Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.morethanpianos.com
(semi-retired)
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