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Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Olek] #1928953
07/19/12 07:44 AM
07/19/12 07:44 AM
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KZ
Maximillyan Online embarrased OP
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Originally Posted by Kamin
The student tuners begin to learn by plucking usually

Max wants to forget and throw away his life "a plectrum with rope". Now he beginning tuner-student yet

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Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Olek] #1928998
07/19/12 09:28 AM
07/19/12 09:28 AM
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Posts: 460
Münster, Germany
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Gregor Offline
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Originally Posted by Kamin
The student tuners begin to learn by plucking usually


Never heard about that. Ok, chipping after restringing, but for a normal tuning?

Max, you should focus on correct unisons.


piano tech - tuner - dealer
Münster, Germany
www.weldert.de
Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan] #1929002
07/19/12 09:36 AM
07/19/12 09:36 AM
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Olek Offline
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Gregor, first lessons with chipping, and chippers in factory before learning tuning, just to get some feel with the hammer.

It is not the same actually probably.


Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Gregor] #1929059
07/19/12 12:03 PM
07/19/12 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Gregor
Originally Posted by Kamin
The student tuners begin to learn by plucking usually


Never heard about that. Ok, chipping after restringing, but for a normal tuning?

Max, you should focus on correct unisons.


Gregor,thank you for a attention and your replic. My problem is that the part it may seem that I do not want and can not build the unisons so I have bad ears. But I work with very oldest upright piano. Pins refuse to keep the desired position in a bush and a hole of pinblock. And I have need little to overstate the desired tone in unison. So in my final temperament a human can to feel some accordion's sounding in unison (incoordination). I can assure you that after one or two visits and fix it's sound better

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Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Gregor] #1929063
07/19/12 12:08 PM
07/19/12 12:08 PM
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KZ
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Originally Posted by Gregor
Originally Posted by Kamin
The student tuners begin to learn by plucking usually


chipping after restringing,

in Russian, this operation is called "tsvikovschik" (цвиковщик)

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Gregor] #1929117
07/19/12 01:27 PM
07/19/12 01:27 PM
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Niagara Region, On. Canada
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Originally Posted by Gregor
Originally Posted by Kamin
The student tuners begin to learn by plucking usually


Never heard about that. Ok, chipping after restringing, but for a normal tuning?

Max, you should focus on correct unisons.


Sometimes us tuners need to resort to plucking and I carry a guitar pick for such occasions. Don't resort to it too often I might add. If a hammer misses a string and the customer refuses to repair it, I will still pluck tune it to get the string up to tension and in reasonable tune. On some old pianos the highest notes can get so faint, a pluck can produce a louder tone in noisy environments or a longer sustain for tuning purposes.


Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region
Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Emmery] #1929134
07/19/12 01:55 PM
07/19/12 01:55 PM
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KZ
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KZ
Originally Posted by Emmery
Originally Posted by Gregor
Originally Posted by Kamin
The student tuners begin to learn by plucking usually


Never heard about that. Ok, chipping after restringing, but for a normal tuning?

Max, you should focus on correct unisons.


Sometimes us tuners need to resort to plucking and I carry a guitar pick for such occasions. Don't resort to it too often I might add. If a hammer misses a string and the customer refuses to repair it, I will still pluck tune it to get the string up to tension and in reasonable tune. On some old pianos the highest notes can get so faint, a pluck can produce a louder tone in noisy environments or a longer sustain for tuning purposes.

This is very true. This could have written only a practicing piano's tuner. Sometimes in practice, when the use of a plectrum is inevitable. Bravo, you have explained them very clearly.

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan] #1929136
07/19/12 02:07 PM
07/19/12 02:07 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
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France
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Olek Offline
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Originally Posted by Maximillyan
Originally Posted by Gregor
Originally Posted by Kamin
The student tuners begin to learn by plucking usually


Never heard about that. Ok, chipping after restringing, but for a normal tuning?

Max, you should focus on correct unisons.


Gregor, My problem is that the part it may seem that I do not want and can not build the unisons so I have bad ears. But I work with very oldest upright piano. Pins refuse to keep the desired position in a bush and a hole of pinblock.


Max I dont believe you have bad ears, but they are twisted, you are not used to listen for the good part of tone.

FOr the pins that dont stay put, try to work with the hammer very very slowly on those notes, if the pin does not grip when pushed back a little, go back and do again,
once, twice, 3, 4 times, after 3 or 4 times the grip will raise.

Think that the string have to hold the pin in its position, you don't need to push on the pin really, try to turn exactly in rotational plane, but with the real tuning hammer (you cannot turn slowly enough with the T hammer)

THere you need the energy provided by the playing hand to send strokes to the pin so it find its bed. The only necessity is that the bottom of the pin have yet a little grip.

On an old piano with no pin hold, you make the pin "float " in the hole while you fight the string tension with the hammer, the pin is just in the middle, when you release the tension it tend to go to its place naturally.

That is why it is very important to learn to respect the rotational plane of the pin, so not to add wear or compress the hole.

Learn to do that at any pitch (but with enough torque coming from the wire, then focus on tuning 2 strings together.)

To me a piano at 415 Hz is less easy to set the pin than one at 435.
The wire force is pushing the pin out of its rotational plane, it can compensate for a lot of wear.

Manipulating the pin again an again with the method I give you is providing some grip, that is what I noticed anyway (the opposite of what we think generally )



Last edited by Kamin; 07/19/12 02:18 PM.

Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Emmery] #1929140
07/19/12 02:15 PM
07/19/12 02:15 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
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Olek Offline
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Joined: Mar 2008
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France
Originally Posted by Emmery
Originally Posted by Gregor
Originally Posted by Kamin
The student tuners begin to learn by plucking usually


Never heard about that. Ok, chipping after restringing, but for a normal tuning?

Max, you should focus on correct unisons.


Sometimes us tuners need to resort to plucking and I carry a guitar pick for such occasions. Don't resort to it too often I might add. If a hammer misses a string and the customer refuses to repair it, I will still pluck tune it to get the string up to tension and in reasonable tune. On some old pianos the highest notes can get so faint, a pluck can produce a louder tone in noisy environments or a longer sustain for tuning purposes.


Sure, I also carry some finger nails for that use wink


Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Olek] #1929141
07/19/12 02:23 PM
07/19/12 02:23 PM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,417
KZ
Maximillyan Online embarrased OP
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Maximillyan  Online Embarrased OP
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Joined: Jun 2011
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KZ
Originally Posted by Kamin
Originally Posted by Maximillyan
Originally Posted by Gregor
Originally Posted by Kamin
The student tuners begin to learn by plucking usually


Never heard about that. Ok, chipping after restringing, but for a normal tuning?

Max, you should focus on correct unisons.


Gregor, My problem is that the part it may seem that I do not want and can not build the unisons so I have bad ears. But I work with very oldest upright piano. Pins refuse to keep the desired position in a bush and a hole of pinblock.



On an old piano with no pin hold, you make the pin "float " in the hole while you fight the string tension with the hammer, the pin is just in the middle, when you release the tension it tend to go to its place naturally.

That is why it is very important to learn to respect the rotational plane of the pin, so not to add wear or compress the hole.

Learn to do that at any pitch (but with enough torque coming from the wire, then focus on tuning 2 strings together.)

Thank Isaac,it's very need words for me
Regards

Last edited by Maximillyan; 07/19/12 02:24 PM.
Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan] #1983330
11/06/12 07:41 AM
11/06/12 07:41 AM
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KZ
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Max is once again trying to make a temperament old piano "Belarus"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYrv2950b44

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan] #1983854
11/07/12 05:37 PM
11/07/12 05:37 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 163
Caldwell, Idaho
Dennis Kelvie Offline
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Caldwell, Idaho
Hey Max,
I AGREE with Johnkie, you DO use the hoover well. And you did NOT demonstrate any difference in anything more than the difference between a badly out of tune piano and one in better tune. You demonstrated NOTHING about the new temperament. The only REAL difference appeared to be in the unisons.

Do you know the difference?



Dennis C. Kelvie
Piano Tuner/Technician since 1976
Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Dennis Kelvie] #1984574
11/09/12 10:10 AM
11/09/12 10:10 AM
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Maximillyan Online embarrased OP
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Originally Posted by Dennis Kelvie
. The only REAL difference appeared to be in the unisons.

Are Unison is still there?

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan] #1984619
11/09/12 12:18 PM
11/09/12 12:18 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
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Niagara Region, On. Canada
Emmery Offline
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Max, spend some time around a really good tuner if you can find one. Carefully analyze the temperament on various pianos. It would be best if you had a solid benchmark to measure your progress against.


Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region
Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Emmery] #1984641
11/09/12 01:03 PM
11/09/12 01:03 PM
Joined: Jun 2011
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Originally Posted by Emmery
Carefully analyze the temperament on various pianos.

Hi,Emmery
Thanks for watching my movie. From your point of view it is permissible for temperament Piano 1957? I'm really trying to find the right temperament. I do not hide their mistakes. I am ready to criticism from other tuners. I do it's as I can, sorry

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan] #1984898
11/10/12 04:40 AM
11/10/12 04:40 AM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 460
Münster, Germany
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Gregor Offline
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Münster, Germany
If you don´t have a mentor, go and get a tuning software like tunelab. Tune the temperament and check it with tunelab: what did you well, what not? Use it as a mentor.

BTW, temperament is the term for tuning the whole octave from A3 to A4.

Gregor


piano tech - tuner - dealer
Münster, Germany
www.weldert.de
Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Gregor] #1984970
11/10/12 09:24 AM
11/10/12 09:24 AM
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Niagara Region, On. Canada
Emmery Offline
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The temperament octave can be set in in various areas of the keyboard. Some people like to extend it beyond an octave also, but an octave is the minumum needed.

F3-F4 is probably most popular. Major 3rds get too fast above this point for progressive checks for most people. I know an old timer who sets his temperament between F2-F3 and likes the slower M3's afforded by this, and lots of people go from C3-C4, especially if they are carrying a C fork.

Last edited by Emmery; 11/10/12 09:25 AM.

Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region
Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan] #1985208
11/11/12 01:14 AM
11/11/12 01:14 AM
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erichlof Offline
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Hey Max,
If you can't watch a pro at work tuning in your area, take a look at this video:

[video:youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=iWKgwqIS8w4[/video]

Listen to him tuning unisons and octaves. Always strive for a clean, clear unison and octave - no 'waves' or 'wobbles'.

Good luck!

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan] #1985271
11/11/12 08:29 AM
11/11/12 08:29 AM
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By now you should be doing a decent tuning. I can't help thInking that you might be doing a good tuning but, because of the lever technique you lectured us about in your last video, I can hear the piano going out of tune while you spend the first half of this particular video talking.

In your favor, I have yet to find a uTube demonstration of a good classic tuning technique using the thumb as a fulcrum that you can learn from. It seems that the ones who really know how to tune either don't know how to put a video on line or simply can't be bothered.

"The stuff on the web these days is actively preventing raw talent from developing"----discuss....


Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.


Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: rXd] #1985277
11/11/12 08:56 AM
11/11/12 08:56 AM
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Maximillyan Online embarrased OP
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Originally Posted by rxd
By now you should be doing a decent tuning. I can't help thInking that you might be doing a good tuning but, because of the lever technique you lectured us about in your last video, I can hear the piano going out of tune while you spend the first half of this particular video talking.

In your favor, I have yet to find a uTube demonstration of a good classic tuning technique using the thumb as a fulcrum that you can learn from. It seems that the ones who really know how to tune either don't know how to put a video on line or simply can't be bothered.

"The stuff on the web these days is actively preventing raw talent from developing"----discuss....


I'm sorry but I absolutely do not understand what you mean. If you think that Max is not able to tuning of a piano, then it is your right

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