Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix

[quote=Loren D]I'm still not convinced about CA glue, even though it's widely accepted now.
Here's why: We all agree on the incredibly high capillary action of the stuff. I speculate that because of this, most of it wicks into the first porous material it finds, and in most modern pianos, that would be the pin bushing (I know not all makes have them, but I said "most.") /quote]

Greetings,
I have used CA for the last 6 years, once, even treating an entire piano that was being restrung,(no money for the block). It tunes like any other good piano. I was amazed. It consistently adds 15-30 lbs of torque to loose pins, which has always been plenty of tension to tune well with. I have never seen a loose pin in a bushing that didnt' have a small gap at the back, which is all that is needed to let it run down the pin.
The only skeptics I have seen are those that have little or no experience with CA. Try it on blocks that are in for replacement, try it on scraps of pinblock, etc.
Become familiar with the speed, ease, and results, and most reasonable people will see it as a vast improvement. I was trained in the most traditional ways of piano technology, and CA is "new", but it is so far ahead of the rest of the "restorers" that I wouldn't consider anything else.
If there wasn't sufficient torque with CA, it is a simple matter to go up a pinsize. The CA application doesn't hurt anything.
Regards,

What about when someone goes to rebuild and finds the pinblock has been CA'd to the plate?

Melt it with alcohol based solvent.

You did it , Dan ? You cannot melt cured CA as easily in my opinion (I recall when I had to clean the door lock that someone had gently poured with CA, it took 3 days (sorry, 5 days) with highly volatile solvents (Aceton, methyl ketone MEK). Alcohol did not do anything (but now I know how to do if the same "joke" happens again).

The problem of old mushy block is that we need 2/10 thickness of a highly resilient material to hold the original pîn, which BTW is not anymore having good threads usually. Also all the metal dust which is in the whole, mixed with the cardboard dust, will not hold the pin for very long unless one is able to tune it once every 5 years.

Cardboard is done with very soft wood, while pinblock is done with very hard one (not so hard but way more than the cellulose of the cardboard)

Then if it is possible to gain some grip with some anti adhesive product, plus a minimal holding, the tuning can be restored for a few years.

When I tested normal CA, it makes a bearing around the pin that where turning more easily after than before, so the grip capacity of the cured CA surface escapes me. When tuning that will probably also fall in dust, may be that dust is what makes the CA thing works, from your witnessings.

You're probably right Loren D, if the composition of this CA is acrylic thing re-screwing pin is placed now in a new bush. In fact, as if we put pin in a hole the half glass tube (flask). For me the question this way. Initially, metallic pin placed in the wood material. After repairing pin (metal)+ wood+ the lower part of the glass. Would it have a new connection to be reliable for several years it's work?
Loren D,how long is it is aired the smell from the room of week, month?

Thank you Kamin, for the discussion of corrugated cardboard. Victory may be considered for me if the pin is in the "new hole screwed" hold out and a string don't be weakened at least six months.

I am sorry Max but you miss totally the point there, , if you customers cannot pay you much you better repair the more that you can in a durable way, there is so much to do on most pianos.

Sometime I read you as if you had passed 40 years without any recognizing of your efforts and value, so you need to write youself how good you are.

Dont worry the services you give to your customers are valued, if not with money, by other means, and providing the best one is the only way, to me.

Gaining 6 months or even 2-3 years may be not enough under certain circumstances. And no fight there, old wire (after 10 years so to say) need very little pin friction to hold pitch normally, but then dryness and humidity are moving all the setup, that is why it does not stay put as well.

Old wire can be tuned in a poor holding block with some success once you get an adequate pin setting technique. Then it may hold for 6-months or a year without any shim (if not brutalized)

Perhaps unfortunately, I still didn't something very good and meaningful (me 40 years). So write about myself that I am super it would be indiscreet, wrong and arrogant. All my life I am turning pin of verticals and grateful customers pay a little money. I'm trying to learn new methods of tuning, but as you noticed me is not got nothing new and all my a tests vain

Ed Foote,I am pleased that CA provides a margin of safety to the torque is good for pin. How do you tested measures a lost pin? Or is your personal feeling of your hand? I would like to learn more about it's. I have a question. If the CA gives adds 15-30 lbs of torque to loose pins, to result I think that a corrugated cardboard shim is not much less. I do not know how make need tested it

In our case, when a heat received as result the excessive friction after the installation of additional corrugated cardboard solvable only works for the benefit. As I wrote before it warms up some particles of starch or silicate glue and under high pressure evenly pieces cellulose to gradually pressed into the wall of hole (pinblock) and bush. But that process a screwing we can use the T-bar is not fast, and thus create the ideal temperature inside the timber. To reduce the temperature needs to be done several times and did not knock at full strength when we do hammering on the pin . But what I saw on YouTube, so no one does. There's technology of hammer beats is fast and strong .
In both technologies, re-install of a pin, we can control the friction force

Dear molehill, I am very sorry for you that this careless tuner you astray, and their unqualified actions spoiled your piano. However, let us pray that all is not so bad with your piano. The new tuner- technicians would have a collective decision to help you, I hope so. The fact that he scored the pin and got a negative result - just the thing for which I have to write here. Most importantly, the pinblock was not damaged. My opinion is that when we change the pin, whether a larger diameter, pouring CA, set up a cardboard shim it all would always - Arts. No matter how long the procedure, how much money spent. The main thing that don't hurt our grand pianos!

Without shim!

Sometimes the loose pin a technician to hammering into a hole pinblock. A pin provides for a little while frictions. In certain time last ,a pin would not provide the necessary friction. There is a problem, would can I do ? Without removing the string from the pin, I just twisted it off out of the pinblock the (2-3 turns) a little bit . Then I'm re-insert the string into the hole of pin and install it (screwed) to the " factory native location". He again works. I do not put shim in this case. I think the reason for which the pin begins to work again, to is that the wood's place of pinblock "rested" and not to had excessive pressure . The structure of wood after "rest" would be again provide the necessary friction for the metal pins in own native position of pinblock
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66TA...6250&index=13&feature=plpp_video

So because the people cannot pay you enough you see no advantage in learning to tune ?

Kamin, you are not quite right. This video is not intended to show Maxim can customize the right or wrong. Your diagnosis of my tuning you have to already placed categorically and clearly. I would not want to persuade and prove that I can do it perfectly. We live with you, if you want in different worlds, with different ideas about good and bad. I would not want a long and tedious to prove that vertical "Дружба" was bring and restored after 25 years oblivion of the unheated barn. Now it still can extract at least some sounds. The child engaged in music, parents collecting money on a new tool, etc. The video is dedicated to the problem of use hammering on a pin. I argued and shall do it hereinafter on the evils of this operation for a piano. Never beat on a pin ! Need to screw it's (native pin) into pinblock! Let's all forum's visitors to they see and draw conclusions. Let's think them and about their Inviting if they would need technician with a hammer. To beat or not to beat ...

"Огромное спасибо за Ваш метод!!! Очень помогло".
Many thanks for your method! It helped. 23 years man from RF wrote me thanks. His name Max too

TheMaxim6666 6 дн. назад в плейлисте Tuning pins (piano) - Tightening.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJvp...8UV1C7tLTOlL8zC1wblslQ&feature=inbox

Dear technicians,forgive me for my molestation. But yesterday, I carefully re-read all the posts and found the words of Roy (06/10/12) as conclusive on the use of corrugated pads in specific cases. That's what I wrote in my mail a novice tuner- technician Boris from Ufa (Russia): "I have come to the client and I'm find a few bass pins (4) which twist off counterclockwise. They absolutely lost fixation. Owner of piano said to permits me to take risks and do things I think it necessary. Because guests were invited to her birthday. Already after 5 hours, all had to sit down at the table and to toasts to the health of the hostess piano. Vertical refused to work. I was originally skeptical of the corrugated shim, when I found your article to the inernet. However, as usual, I was afraid to do hammering on naughty pins. For me with risk, I had use your technology. Imagine my surprise when me managed to do it! It works! Now, I choose only the cardboard, I was again at this address after 2 months later, one pin released few, but I admit that this was due to the fact that I did the first time. " Perhaps Roy rights, sometimes in individual cases, it may help.

It is not always possible to to put an end.
When we beat hammer in pin of larger diameter (oversize), or after the installation of any shim and then is one negative point. After strike a hammer on the pin is its partial deformation of metal. It occurs then if wood's hole pinblock hard and not loosely. As a consequence it's possible that the professional tuning hammer will not be placed on a deformed pin. Such a pin will bad " to obey tuning hammer". Technician will agonizes with it. But it is rather an exception to the general practitioner. Seldom I'm have seen a deformed pin after a hammering

On "Yahoo! Answers" online resource, a young man trying to do a shim. If I understand he did it. He writes that the method will be applied it's selectively . Because he thinks it can increase the excessive pressure on the pinblock. I totally disagree him misgivings. This operation harmless for a piano
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20120315071421AAalI0b

Two days ago I received a message (Yahoo) from my adept, who lives in South Africa. He is very well says about "Max's cardboard fix"

nj
south africa

Best Answer - Chosen by Asker
Hi Maxim, here I go again replying in your post. Your question on the previous one is quite vague (your way of using english language) which makes one wonder what you were trying to say. You quoted my words that I used footwrap. True and thanks to you, because I saw your video and tried it in some pins. Then you say here that the string must not be removed, then it is not an easy task to try. The strings will reach the point of breakage if you continue to turn the pin backwards for the purpose of loosening it. I did break one string so I continued with others having the strings removed after few turns, and putting it back is the most difficult part because of the acquired coiled shape of the string that you advised to be screwed back with the pin and not hammered in. But anyway with patience, I put it all in place and it really turned into super tightened pins with the cardboard wrap.
Source(s):
maxim's video

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/i...ETsy6IX;_ylv=3?qid=20120701005853AA62DuJ

Hello people. I want to enter into your discussion about this method. You are live in Europe, America and etc., cannot understand the cause of this method. It is banal. This lack of material means or even the lack of materials. And even while living in Leningrad, it was hard for me to find the right pieces of black 20 pinblocks larger size are $ 13!. That we have, in the "second" capital of Russia. And imagine now, as is the case in the province. Only once in these conditions, we can talk sensibly about the usefulness of this method. With the help of carboard, I have managed to restore the badly-sounding strings. I want to thank Maxim for his gratuitous assistance.

hello, if you learn how to tune you dont need so much repairs. Also the technique provided is wrong (not taking out the coils) , and the man ininterested in learning any better.

So... no more comments necessary (he likes to be taken for a genious, as too. Many in that occupation ) bof.. as we use to say...