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To Mike,

Dewster's comment about "the flurry of notes" is right on the money. The virtuosity of the pianist notwithstanding, the playing tends to mask the listeners ability to really hear what the piano produces. I realize it was an impromptu recording, and we all appreciate the opportunity to view it. So I thank you for providing it.

I didn't see any audio demos on the casio product website...Unless i missed finding them, and if so getting to them wasn't intuitive. Kind of surprised you would launch without that? Seems like a chance to solidify the buzz? Any demo work you can supply is greatly appreciated.

I am very excited about this launch. Casio's travel well and are a whole lot cheaper than a Nord. If it has decent action and a pleasant, non-confrontational acoustic piano sound, it could be a low cost performance option for a lot of people, and might let me retire my Yamaha P-250 armored piano.

+1

I was able to play these new models for the first time one week before NAMM in Tokyo Japan, we then shipped those prototypes directly to NAMM. We don't have audio demos up because the pianos (including the piano sounds) are not entirely finished. We will get some audio demos up soon, but I'm hesitant to post too many right away because it will change (for the better). Some of the nuance details that AiR can provide like the damper resonance are still being tweaked.

This is actually good news. It means there's a chance that the engineers can really hone the sounds to avoid the type of criticisms leveled at the previous generation - if there's enough latitude/memory available. I think it's very sensible to wait before posting demos that many will use to make initial, and possibly irrevocable, judgments.

Mike,
Can you comment on what will happen to the PX3 with all the revisions to the other Privias? I would imagine it would be due to be revised along with all the other privias.

I'd like to know when the Celviano line will be updated like the new Privias.....perhaps in time for NAMM 2013?

K.

Sorry guys, I can't comment on future products although a PX-3 replacement is high on my wish list. Also keep in mind the PX-3 released almost a year after the PX-330.

When it's time, I hope they get away from the thin black buttons on a black background. Not stage friendly.

+1

Mike, if you are tweaking sounds still, the attack on the piano sounds too, um, attacky? Maybe it's just too bright. Anywho, thanks for being on the forums and making affordable pianos!

Over on the PX-150 page:

http://www.casio.com/products/Digital_Pianos_%26_Keyboards/Privia_Digital_Pianos/PX-150WE/

I see: "For further realism a new Damper Resonance simulator provides the rich sound of the strings when the sustain pedal is used."

I get a little lost when it comes to what all these things labeled "resonance" mean ("damper resonance" seems like a contradiction in terms since dampers are there to quash resonance, and "string resonance" is so general it's kind of meaningless) but in this instance I think they mean pedal sympathetic resonance, which would be a very good thing to see improved in the Casio line.

Or by "sympathetic string resonance" were you (anotherscott) talking about key sympathetic resonance (a much more subtle effect)?

From the KeyboardMag article:

http://www.keyboardmag.com/article/casio-supercharges-the-privia-with-four-new-models/148998

"Casio’s new proprietary sound source, “AiR” (Acoustic and intelligent Resonator), delivers unmatched realism and detail. Utilizing over three times the waveform memory of the previous generation, the AiR engine provides sensational dynamics, damper resonance and even compensates for the speed at which hammers strike strings at different velocities and key ranges.

The new expanded Privia line not only has four different models which are available in a variety of colors and finishes but some models have expanded capabilities of the AiR sound source with up to 256 notes of polyphony, sympathetic resonance and cabinet simulation. The PX-350 and PX-850 also provide the ability to record a 44.1kHz .wav file directly to a USB thumb drive so that rehearsals, performances and moments of inspiration can be easily captured and shared."

I'm getting confused. The first paragraph uses the term "damper resonance". The second paragraph uses the term "sympathetic resonance" and implies that it isn't implemented in all models.

I take damper resonance to be that wider, more complex and richer, er, resonant sound that happens when you press the damper pedal to simulate the fact all strings are free to resonate in sympathy* (*confusing choice of word by me there but I can't think of an alternative to better differentiate it from my next sentence, sorry).

I take sympathetic resonance to mean that little trick you can pull on some DPs whereby you can press a key down and then other key presses will excite that key/strings, if there is a harmonic relationship between them etc. The basic nature of these behaviours, ie, that undamped (either by pedal or key press) strings are free to resonate is so similar and, significantly, interconnected in terms of acoustic piano behaviour, that it is very disappointing that DP manufacturers see the need to separate them in this way. A cheap and unimaginative method of product differentiation if you ask me.

Steve

Dewster says "damper resonance" seems like a contradiction in terms since dampers are there to quash resonance, and "string resonance" is so general it's kind of meaningless

Maybe the contradiction in terms goes much farther back in history than DP blurb. The main pedal on a piano is called 'sustain pedal' or 'damper pedal' or, when I was a kid, simply the 'loud pedal'. The problem with the term 'damper' of course is that its active function is exactly the opposite: to undampen the strings. So logically, it should be called the 'undamper pedal' or the dedamper.

And surely, selective sympathetic resonance should happen 'automatically' if the DP designer has implemented 'pedal resonance' properly, because 'string/sympathetic resonance' is a specific, and technically a far more basic instance of 'pedal resonance'.

In other words, yes, I agree, Essbrace - the two types of resonance are part of the same thing......or should be.

In the physical world, they are. In the electronic world, it takes different techniques to implement them.

Nord offers the pedal-down style of string resonance on all the current models that have piano functions, including the least expensive Electro 3. Nord offers the pedal-up-key-down style only on their higher end models.

In terms of how the sound has to be processed, I think the difference can be summed up this way: On a model with no resonance features at all, there is only one way a middle C will sound (at a given velocity). On a model with pedal-down resonance, there are two sounds that can be generated by hitting that middle C... the pedal up version, and the pedal down version. For a "pedal-up but other-keys-down" implementation, there are hundreds of possible sounds that middle C can make, as it will sound different depending on which key (or 2 keys, or 3 keys...) your other hand is holding down at the time. So the first kind of resonance can be implemented simply by doubling the number of samples used. But since it's not practical to create samples for every possible variation, the second kind needs an algorithm that can essentially generate numerous variations from a smaller number of actual samples. I imagine there are ways to cheat, and not necessarily create a completely different resonance sound for each different combination of held keys. But it's still more complicated than the first scenario. This is probably one of the areas where modeling makes more sense than manipulating samples.

i didn't read the specs but i think you wouldn't want to overly handicap the 150 and 350 technology wise. i don't know casio's sweet spot of the market but i think lightweight boards that will travel are an important part of their niche? the 150 and 350 will weigh about 25 lbs. The 750 and 850 are wood encased- 75-80lbs?

i know there is a $600 spread between the 150 and the 850- so they can't offer the same features, but seems like you ought to make the 350 an upgrade that captures the most sought after sound characteristics. perhaps all the resonance stuff doesn't matter if you are playing at a party or whatever- people don't really pick it up. and none of these will most likely be detailed enough to record. But for 1100 bucks (the 350?), i'd want to think i'm not leaving a lot of sound character on the table.

just a thought

My guess would have been that there would be a low end and high end portable model (in the 150 and 350), and a low end and a high end in-home model (i.e. basically the same models in furniture would be the 750 and 850, with the latter enclosure being more substantial as well)... but it doesn't appear that they went quite that way.

Oh, please! Having just ranted about Kawai needlessly crippling their portable DPs, don't tell me I'm going to have to do the same thing regarding these new Casios!

There are plenty of players who use these instruments beyond just bashing out a few tunes at parties. Subtlety isn't confined to the parlor! It really irks me when manufacturers refuse to offer portable users a fully refined model. As it states in the blurb for the 850, the functionality just needs to be unlocked. Well, unlock it for the 350, already!!!

I couldn't have said it better myself, Voxpops!

+1

Even the response of the "pedal sympathetic resonance" varies with what is being played, so a single algorithmic approach might be best for both it and the "key sympathetic resonance" (though I do agree that sampled "pedal sympathetic resonance" can sound quite realistic). Ideally the algorithm would accurately reflect how the real piano behaves, and not just be a cheap reverb effect *cough*Yamaha*cough*.