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I use wrest plank plugs when there is a cracked pinblock. It is fairly good method. I do not belive that max idea is good enough...Metal bushing can also help, cardboard, do not think it is the good way...
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It's a good, productive discussion, I think!
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So if using this method helps the piano stay in tune longer without a lot of expense, then I say great.
Of course it would be immodest on my part, but I must in topic publicate this . I'm repeat not trying to be a prophet, imposes its own ideas. I do it just to draw attention to the general problem of poor fixation pins off. It is a pity that most people wrote Russian about this problem , but there are in English tookamil-koma 23 ÑнварÑ, 2011 года, 14:17 КатегоричеÑки не ÑоглаÑен в обвинениÑÑ… в непрофеÑÑионализме. Главное чтобы колок держал, а он реально держит. Я отÑтроил Ñвое Ñтаренькое пианино на котором обучалиÑÑŒ трое моих детей. Только проложил один Ñлой гофрокартона в виде трубочки, а затем ввинчивал колок, предварительно продув отверÑтие Ñжатым воздухом. КÑтати меÑта трений Ñтруны Ñмазал графитовой Ñмазкой. Так делаетÑÑ Ð¿Ñ€Ð¸ отÑтройке "машинок" на ÑтратокаÑтерах. Еще раз большое ÑпаÑибо за абÑолютно не затратный ÑпоÑоб быÑтрого воÑÑÑ‚Ð°Ð½Ð¾Ð²Ð»ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ Ð¸Ð½Ñтрумента. Thank you! :-) RonPaulSongs 1 год назад По поводу "портÑнок" из наждачки, жеÑти и некоего непонÑтного материала, пропитанного ÑпокÑидкой (который иногда вываливаетÑÑ Ð¸Ð·-под вынимаемого вирбелÑ), могу Ñказать, что Ñто вандализм и невежеÑтво, оÑнованное на незнании матчаÑти. NatalyShNA1 1 меÑÑц назад УÑтановка полоÑки из наждачной бумаги под колок Ñто дейÑтвительно неправильный метод. ЕÑли учеÑÑ‚ÑŒ, тот факт, что колок потом ещё и забиваетÑÑ. Увы, полоÑка н/б Ñвоими абразивными зёрнами "убивает" и без того уже Ñработанное поÑадочное меÑто под колком. Иногда, некоторые маÑтера ратуют за иÑпользование вÑевозможных ÑпокÑидных Ñмол. Я против Ñтой методики, потому, что приходилоÑÑŒ обÑлуживать такие пианино, колки не фикÑировали нужного тона. TheMaximillyan в ответ на NatalyShNA1 1 меÑÑц назад Ðеоднократно пользовалаÑÑŒ методикой, предложенной МакÑимом. Ðто дейÑтвительно работает. МакÑиму реÑпект и ÑпаÑибо за четкие пошаговые инÑтрукции! Ð’ качеÑтве материала ÑƒÐ¿Ð»Ð¾Ñ‚Ð½Ð¸Ñ‚ÐµÐ»Ñ Ñ‚Ð°ÐºÐ¶Ðµ Ñначала иÑпользовала гофрокартон, затем нашла более убедительный материал - картон, из которого обычно изготавливают коробки Ð´Ð»Ñ Ñ‡Ð°Ñ Ð² пакетиках NatalyShNA1 1 меÑÑц назад Благодарю за ценный Ñовет, МакÑим! ОбÑзательно воÑпользуюÑÑŒ. По поводу радикального Ð·Ð°Ð±Ð¸Ð²Ð°Ð½Ð¸Ñ ÐºÐ¾Ð»ÐºÐ¾Ð² вÑÑ‘-таки имею возражение. Ð’ таком капризном Ñлементе, как вирбельбанк, любой удар молотком деÑтруктивно ÑказываетÑÑ Ð½Ð° ÑоÑедних поÑадочных гнездах (оÑобенно в "уÑталых" инÑтрументах) и, как ÑледÑтвие, увеличивает Ð²Ñ€ÐµÐ¼Ñ Ð½Ð°Ñтройки. Молоток умеÑтен, но в гомеопатичеÑких дозах. ОÑтальное - вкручиванием. ПриÑтных вам инÑтрументов! NatalyShNA1 в ответ на Maxim Gorkiy (Показать комментарий) 1 нед. назад Perhaps a video showing us how to do it the "right" way would be of interest to all those doing it "wrong"? I tune my piano myself, and have many people say I am doing it "wrong" yet, it serves me quite well. I have not mastered the art of setting all the pins yet, some hold better than others. My piano isn't a very good one as in, it's not expensive, though I do enjoy the technical aspect of the instrument just as much as playing it. I found this video very inspirational (inspirational.) DumpYourTelevision в ответ на buttercupaz1 (Показать комментарий) 6 меÑ. Ðазад SEI UN GRANDE TECNICO COMPLIMENTI.!!! CONTINUA COSI' caimano655 7 меÑ. назад Grazie per apprezzare il mio lavoro! Cordiali saluti, sintonizzatore maxim_tuner TheMaximillyan в ответ на caimano655 (Показать комментарий) 7 меÑ. назад grisha8488 наÑтройка пианино МакÑим здравÑтвуйте !!!! Хочу выразить огромную благодарноÑÑ‚ÑŒ за ваши ролики и Ñоветы, Ñ Ð¾Ñ‡ÐµÐ½ÑŒ рад что еÑÑ‚ÑŒ такие люди как вы, Ñ Ð¿Ð¾ вашему методу реÑтаврировал пианино КраÑный ОктÑбрь Ñтарое начала 60 годом пианино моей мамы ... поÑледнее Ð²Ñ€ÐµÐ¼Ñ ÑчиталоÑÑŒ безнадежным так как Ñтрой Ñовершенно не держало большенÑтво колков не держали вообще , при наÑтройке на глазах вращалÑÑ Ð½Ð°Ð·Ð°Ð´ в меÑте Ñ ÐºÐ»ÑŽÑ‡ÐµÐ¼...еÑли можно то как Ñ Ð²Ð°Ð¼Ð¸ ÑвÑзатьÑÑ Ð½Ðµ в ютубе, и поговорить а по возможноÑти ÑозвонитьÑÑ Ð¸Ð»Ð¸ как то через интернет ÑозвонитьÑÑ Ñкайп или подобно. Ñ Ñам из города ЧелÑбинÑк буду очень ждать от Ð²Ð°Ñ Ð¾Ñ‚Ð²ÐµÑ‚ ! Ñ ÑƒÐ²Ð°Ð¶ÐµÐ½Ð¸ÐµÐ¼ Григорий Smok Ответ от: 28.01.2011 16:31:11 Совершенно Ñлучайно натолкнулÑÑ Ð½Ð° Ñту Ñтатью, заинтереÑовало- прочел до конца. Я конечно не ÑпециалиÑÑ‚ в облаÑти наÑтройки и ремонта музыкальных инÑтрументов, но зато неплохо разбираюÑÑŒ в резьбовых ÑоединениÑÑ…, и еÑли механизм иÑпользуемый в колках Ñделан по Ñтому принципу, то метод предложеный автором Maximillyan должен работаь. Как говорÑÑ‚, "вÑе гениальное-проÑто". Рчто каÑаетÑÑ Ð½ÐµÐ¿Ñ€Ð¸ÑÑ‚Ð¸Ñ Ð±Ð¾Ð»ÑŒÑˆÐ¸Ð½Ñтвом, так опÑÑ‚ÑŒ-же "ЕÑÑ‚ÑŒ два мнениÑ- мое и неправильное". ПонÑтно, Ñ Ð¾Ð´Ð½Ð¾Ð¹ Ñтороны маÑтера вÑÑŽ жизнь занимающиеÑÑ Ñтим иÑÑкуÑтвом (иначе назвать Ñзык не поворачиваетÑÑ), Ñ Ð´Ñ€ÑƒÐ³Ð¾Ð¹ какой-то чудак Ñ ÐºÐ°Ñ€Ñ‚Ð¾Ð½ÐºÐ¾Ð¹. Со Ñвоей позиции могу Ñказать одно, в ремонте механизмов приходитÑÑ Ð¸Ð½Ð¾Ð³Ð´Ð° и не такие "чудеÑа" применÑÑ‚ÑŒ. ЕÑли принцип работает, и Ñ ÐµÐ³Ð¾ помощью удаетÑÑ Ð¾Ð¶Ð¸Ð²Ð¸Ñ‚ÑŒ даже безнадежные инÑтрументы,то хочетÑÑ Ð¿Ð¾Ð¶ÐµÐ»Ð°Ñ‚ÑŒ автору уÑпехов в его нужном деле. С уважением.
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..repairing loose tuning pins by inserting corrugated cardboard.. How about starting with a review of terminology??? For those who have never held a cardboard box, corrugated cardboard looks like this: ...try shoving some of that down a tuning pin hole
JG
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[quote]corrugated cardboard looks like this:
Thank you, Supply . A Savior of verticals our is corrugated cardboard ! It's it on picture
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His method of repairing loose tuning pins by inserting corrugated cardboard, to be precise.
Now, I'm thinking.....what really is a valid reason as to why it wouldn't work? I understand that the cardboard will eventually disintegrate, but it will take many, many movements of the pin before that would happen. In other words, years of tunings.
Second....let's say it does disintegrate. It's still leaving the fiber in the hole between it and the pin.
I know it seems like an unorthodox repair that a lot of us just summarily dismissed, but when really thinking about it, I'm not sure I can come up with a real reason why it wouldn't work.
Many repairs we take for granted today were unorthodox at one time (CA glue in piano repair, for instance).
So.....? The of the method is exceptions to classic rule. You are right, Loren D that the cardboard is already in the process of screwing partially destroyed. When a pin screwed into place, it is not a strip thickness of 3mm. Are where disintegrate fragments of cellulose? It's disintegrate the strip basis of cardboard off and filled the cracks of bush-pinblock. Usually a pin hammered, I screwed it. How it do: 1 A shim is not displaced in the process of screwing. 2 A pin acts as an iron (утюг) and dryer together. The fact is, there is something similar like the glue and pasting on a circle of cellulose on bush and pinblock's hole a new wood's layer . And at the same time polished it's. In fact, we just been repaired the pindlock's hole. End result is a relatively "new hole", a little reduced in diameter. 3 "The new friction" provide two materials - "eaten strip of cardboard" and disintegrated pulp 4 A follow the tuning after a year, for example, does not affect the technical characteristics of the "cured pin." There is one "but". After the initial installation shim it very tightly regulate tuning hammer. 5 The "old pin" is not suffering, is not subject to any deformation and remains in the same technical characteristics as it was originally. 6 Any other shim is expensive, in contrast to the corrugated cardboard 7 Any man watching my film can do it. One woman from Ukraine forced to watch a movie of her husband. He looked it and how she writes, " and he made pins!" I have a big request to the masters- technicians of is not to condemn my method, if themself do not made this experiment. Sincerely,maxim_tuner
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Max are you avare of the tension tuning pins have to hold? Do you realy think a cardboard can be a valid fix for a loose pin? I understand your lack of resources, I come from a country that was a communist one and can understand the conditions in which you work. But, maybe you should slow down a little bit and listen to the advices of a more experienced and trained techs. I do so even today although I have more than 10 years of experience...
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Max are you avare of the tension tuning pins have to hold? Do you realy think a cardboard can be a valid fix for a loose pin? I do so even today although I have more than 10 years of experience... Dear MariottoYou have understood that I am very limited in resources and use what I have in my practice. I am always looking for professional advice on our forum. However, the "cardboard and pin" is topic, which I successfully made in my district many years in past and I does it now . I tested a lot of other stuff and materials. The truth is that shim works. I hope that you will soon discover it for themselves. It is waiting for your experiment with cardboard. But communistic past is my past. Then I very good lived and I sincerely believed in humanistic ideal of the communism Can You do short clip about this procedure?
Last edited by Maximillyan; 05/29/12 03:49 AM.
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The idea is to understand what the pin have to do in the hole, then the resources to correct a too loose pin are limited (thicker one pin, new wood, brass foil)
The elasticity of the cellulose may tighten the hole but it may not allow to lock the pin for long. Old blocks anyway are loosing their resiliency in the zone around the pin, the resiliency "migrates deeper in the block and the area around the pin is not resilient. That, plus the wear is what makes even thicker pins not so efficient at some point, or not for long. Then indeed an experienced tuner will be able to tighten a tuning pin even in an old ovalised block (I suggest that the pin when torqued, deforms, at some point, and then it will take an adapted shape that allow to some better grip)
The point is to know how to manipulate the tuning lever when the pin holding is basically poor, and obtain a bit of pin torque despite that. It can be surprizing .
Last edited by Kamin; 05/29/12 03:43 AM.
Professional of the profession. Foo Foo specialist I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
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The idea is to understand what the pin have to do in the hole, then the resources to correct a too loose pin are limited (thicker one pin, new wood, brass foil)
The elasticity of the cellulose may tighten the hole but it may not allow to lock the pin for long. Old blocks anyway are loosing their resiliency in the zone around the pin, the resiliency "migrates deeper in the block and the area around the pin is not resilient. That, plus the wear is what makes even thicker pins not so efficient at some point, or not for long. Then indeed an experienced tuner will be able to tighten a tuning pin even in an old ovalised block (I suggest that the pin when torqued, deforms, at some point, and then it will take an adapted shape that allow to some better grip)
The point is to know how to manipulate the tuning lever when the pin holding is basically poor, and obtain a bit of pin torque despite that. It can be surprizing . Kamin,I agree with your every word here
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Dear Max, I allways try to do the best I can, even, I have to admit that due to the past which left our market with a lot of poor quallity east block pianos, sometimes it is impossible to do anything because a fix often would exceed the value of the instrument itself. So many times I leave it as it is or fix it just to have a basic funcionallity. I could belive that a cardboard could help a little bit, but it cannot be a valid and proffessional fix. It simply cannot be. Cellulose will eventually burn out in the hole. I admire your persistance but it has to have its limit. About communism we could talk, but I do not think we would agree on that metter. I would say only that if it wouldnt be so in the past, today you could simply order the tools you need from renner or any other supplyer and work with the highest standards...we wouldnt have this disscution today, maybe you would post on the theme Steinway or Fazioli....
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So many times I leave it as it is or fix it just to have a basic funcionallity. I could belive that a cardboard could help a little bit, but it cannot be a valid and proffessional fix. Cellulose will eventually burn out in the hole. Dear Mariotto,cellulose can not be burned when we to screw pin into pinblock used T-bar. It's more of fantasy. You raised the question correctly profitability rehabilitation including repair of pins and price upright piano. In Uralsk, Kazakhstan old Soviet piano is from 50-100 U.S. dollars, and if you do quality repairs then the price will increase a hundredfold. Therefore the client will remain with the non-playing piano. So I use a shim's method. For example, I replaced the 10 pins in 3 octave. The piano will activity for a year or more. I got a little fee 10-15 U.S. dollars. И волки ÑÑ‹Ñ‚Ñ‹ и овцы целы("The wolves are fed and the sheep are safe"). Maybe you're right, say that this repair is a necessary measure with a minimal budget to repair the piano located in between "the hospital resuscitation and the Gates of paradise" P.S I Wait Your film about " Max's cardboard fix" Regards
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So many times I leave it as it is or fix it just to have a basic funcionallity. I could belive that a cardboard could help a little bit, but it cannot be a valid and proffessional fix. Cellulose will eventually burn out in the hole. Dear Mariotto,cellulose can not be burned when we to screw pin into pinblock used T-bar. It's more of fantasy. You raised the question correctly profitability rehabilitation including repair of pins and price upright piano. In Uralsk, Kazakhstan old Soviet piano is from 50-100 U.S. dollars, and if you do quality repairs then the price will increase a hundredfold. Therefore the client will remain with the non-playing piano. So I use a shim's method. For example, I replaced the 10 pins in 3 octave. The piano will activity for a year or more. I got a little fee 10-15 U.S. dollars. И волки ÑÑ‹Ñ‚Ñ‹ и овцы целы("The wolves are fed and the sheep are safe"). Maybe you're right, say that this repair is a necessary measure with a minimal budget to repair the piano located in between "the hospital resuscitation and the Gates of paradise" P.S I Wait Your film about " Max's cardboard fix" Regards I suggest that no one is bashing you for trying to repair tired pianos with very limited budgets and gaining very little money, but the advantage of this sort of forum is to use experience from others and to find new points of view on subjects we are yet treating daily with acceptable success. as eventual other methods where not tested this say enough about your willingness to learn to do better with limited means. There was a discussion about a product sold that was supposed to add new cellulose to wood also. I dont hear about it anymore those days. Having a drink of vodka usually also repair most of the pianos
Professional of the profession. Foo Foo specialist I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
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So many times I leave it as it is or fix it just to have a basic funcionallity. I could belive that a cardboard could help a little bit, but it cannot be a valid and proffessional fix. Cellulose will eventually burn out in the hole. Dear Mariotto,cellulose can not be burned when we to screw pin into pinblock used T-bar. It's more of fantasy. You raised the question correctly profitability rehabilitation including repair of pins and price upright piano. In Uralsk, Kazakhstan old Soviet piano is from 50-100 U.S. dollars, and if you do quality repairs then the price will increase a hundredfold. Therefore the client will remain with the non-playing piano. So I use a shim's method. For example, I replaced the 10 pins in 3 octave. The piano will activity for a year or more. I got a little fee 10-15 U.S. dollars. И волки ÑÑ‹Ñ‚Ñ‹ и овцы целы("The wolves are fed and the sheep are safe"). Maybe you're right, say that this repair is a necessary measure with a minimal budget to repair the piano located in between "the hospital resuscitation and the Gates of paradise" P.S I Wait Your film about " Max's cardboard fix" Regards Having a drink of vodka usually also repair most of the pianos To me very sad to hear the words of "vodka" after it as you wrote, I'll be able to work miracles. I do not drink alcohol than before or after repair. Nevertheless, the proposed methods shim in our forum, sorry not effective, I know this from his own experiments. To be consistent, it is necessary to deny the absurdity of the idea with the irrefutable evidence and technical facts or be silent. I will admit the failure of this method, if the parties to lay out their arguments against it. While I have not heard criticism against the absolute technical insolvency corrugated cardboard shim
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I am sure that Kamin did not want to insult you, rather to add a little bit of humor into disscution. I will not do a video with the repair, or even try it, I use wrest plank plugs or metal bushing, theye are available at retail at price of arround 2 EUR. I simply want the repairvto last more than a year... All the best!
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I am sure that Kamin did not want to insult you, rather to add a little bit of humor into disscution. I will not do a video with the repair, or even try it, I use wrest plank plugs or metal bushing, theye are available at retail at price of arround 2 EUR. I simply want the repairvto last more than a year... All the best! Alas metal shim 2 euro pieces are not available for my potential clients in the near future. I do not insist that you, Mariotto abandoned your proven practical methods. However, I am sorry that you did not experience the pleasure of cardboard shima. Sincerely,maxim_tuner
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Brass foil may be way cheaper and probably better than the metal plugs. Then nothing lost if the string breaks (the wood shaves does not stand for very long and have to be changed with the string. But indeed the block may not be cracked. Wood plugs can be done, if you use a lot buying the (expensive) tool to make them may be an option. you need 2 sorts one for the pins with wood bushings, and one larger. To be made in real Delignit block. As some of those those drills are made in Tcheckia or Hungary you may have access to them may be at a better price than us http://www.outils-machines-haumesser.com/index.php?mod=shop&cat=126&pID=283there are cheap versions but the lenght of the plug is only 12-20 mm at best. Delignit brand is/was used for the floors of the trucks who travel with money from bank to bank. (may be another quality than the one for the pianos the glues may differ !) So a piano tuner knows how to attack the truck, with a hammer and a tuning pin it may suffice Sorry for the vodtka ! is not usually a big impeachment to work since you cut a hand or an arm.
Professional of the profession. Foo Foo specialist I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
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I still say a shim is a shim is a shim. If sandpaper can work, I don't see why corrugated cardboard can't.
If the block needs replaced, then nothing short of replacing it is the correct fix. If block replacement is not an option, choose the method that's attainable,gives adequately good results, and minimizes stress on the instrument and surrounding pins.
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Sorry for the vodtka ! is not usually a big impeachment to work since you cut a hand or an arm.
Brass foil is probably yes, but that at the time,when we will screw into or to hammer is to drive the negative effects of contact with the pin-chopping. Iron + iron, I think it is wrong and most importantly for not long I take Your sorry Kamin, for the vodka made. However, I realized that it was a joke
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