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RE: the extra velocity resolution, I'm very much with Dewster on this one: I'd like to see a carefully controlled study.

Greg.

My feeling is that these kinds of specs don't matter anyway. If the Casio sounds and feels good to play, what difference does it make whether it's because of the 16,000 velocity layers or not? Conversely, what if some study showed that extra velocity levels were indeed noticeable? That wouldn't mean that a model with that feature would necessarily sound better than a model without it, it would depend on the success of the implementation along with all the other variables that make one piano sound better than another. It may be interesting to know from an academic standpoint, but I can't see where it would be relevant in actually choosing what model to buy.

Mike,
As I would like a console piano, I was wondering if the Privia PX-850 will be similar in action and piano sounds to the Celviano AP-650M, although I know the latter will have a greater number of sounds. I'm interested since it looks like I'd be able to try out the PX-850 fairly soon, as the AP-650M won't come out until January, and I wanted to try to get an early sense of what the AP-650M will be like. Just wondering if the AP-650M will be worth waiting for. I have liked the AP-620, but have found on a number of models that I have tried that the keys have some annoying lateral motion and the piano sounds die off a little too quickly for my taste (classical music).
Thanks very much for all your info about Casio pianos.
Steve

Price. ;-)

Other than that, a 350 is a 150 with more features, so it's a matter of whether you need the extra features. I would prefer the 350 for the Line Out jacks, the standard MIDI connectors, the extra sounds, and the ability to store registrations. But there are other differences that might matter more to someone else. If you don't need any of them, stick with the 150.

I don't see it as academic. A manufacturer is saying it makes a real difference - is that real science or just marketing? Though I'm pretty sure increased velocity resolution isn't the first thing I'd fix in a looped instrument...

Why is there no PX-350 in the PX-850 form factor with the nifty lid?

If I want to record the sequence I'm working on, do I just load it to the USB thumb drive and turn off the keyboard? When I turn the keyboard back on, will the thumb drive then load the sequence I was working on so that I could continue working on it?

That is planned as the Celviano AP-650.

Dewster,
There was early question about "what else is different about the action". I did my best to address it. You can believe if you wish that it is just marketing but many manufacturers have developed higher resolution key triggering systems to allow more precise control over the expression on an electronic instrument. Casio I believe is the first to do this under $1000.

That being said, this is not the "first thing" that Casio did when developing the new series. The first thing was to develop a proprietary new processor that would allow better, control, providing damper resonance simulation, access larger memory sizes, provide better effects and much more.

BTW: Where in located in NJ?

Marvin,
The USB thumb drive does several different things. One of the things it can is audio recording. It is very simple, you arm it to record, you play and it creates a .wav file. You can do 99, 25 minute recordings. The USB drive can also serve as storage for the 17 track recorder. This is a multi-track system that Yes would allow you to work on a song piece by piece. The USB drive however is only used to save or backup your song as it stays in memory after you turn the PX-350 off.

But all that matters is if it's good. If it is, it doesn't matter how they got there. If it isn't, it doesn't matter what features it has, and whether you can scientifically prove they're audible or not. That's why I say it's academic... the knowledge will in no way impact whether or not you will buy the piano, even though it may be interesting to know (which is pretty much the definition of it being academic).

Also, a scientific test could prove it can make an audible difference, it still wouldn't tell you whether or not it really makes a difference in this particular design. Or conversely, I suppose, a test could appear to show that more velocity levels makes no difference, but it may be hard to devise a test that could prove it could never make a difference in any circumstance, regardless of other design aspects of the tone or action of the piano, or for that matter, regardless of the player/listener (i.e. it is possible something may only be discernible by one in a hundred people, or one in a a thousand...).

(I also have a hard time imagining who would fund such an independent study, toward what end. But then, people do study all sorts of things...)

But speaking theoretically, in terms of sound, I have a hard time thinking it really makes much difference. The entire volume range of an acoustic piano is, I believe, maybe about 50 dB max. 127 volume levels, then, is enough for any two adjacent levels to be less than a half dB apart, which I believe is a difference below what most people can hear even in the "easiest" frequency and level range to notice differences, so it seems like finer resolution than that would not be audible.

But there are some other variables. Increased velocity doesn't merely change the level of a piano note, it can also change the timbre. But even a timbre increase is really only a level change, it is just that it is a non-linear change, i.e. the level of some harmonics change more than others. I'm not sure whether your ear may be able to pick up such non-linear level changes at finer amounts than when the entire harmonic spectrum of a sound changes in linear fashion, anyone know?

Another variable is that your fingers are capable of, in a sense, an infinite number of velocities. Even though you can't produce a specific velocity on demand (I doubt most people could do that even within only a range of 127, or even 50), you still (for example) "play through" a crescendo at various velocities you could not necessarily produce on demand, but they do need to correlate to particular sonic changes. So this, to me, is the other side of the argument. It's not a matter of hearing more than 127 distinct sounds, it's a matter of being able to naturally respond to the more than 127 different velocities we strike the keys with. In this case, any scientific test would not be based on whether a listener could discern the difference between hearing a 127 and 16k velocity piano, but whether the player could tell the difference in how it "felt" in terms of the sonic changes corresponding to his fingers.

Put differently, sonically, 127 "levels" may be sufficient, but there may be a benefit to mapping those levels to more than 127 "velocities" (and not necessarily in a linear fashion), and that would be hard to discern in any way other than the subjective experience of the player.

That said, I would tend to think that 127 "ranges" of velocities (even if differently "sized") should be enough... i.e. even if someone scientifically "proved" that 16,000 velocities were better than 127, I think it would be that much harder to prove that 16,000 velocities is better than any possible implementation of 127. That is, if the problem of insufficient velocity resolution exists at all, there may be more than one way to address it, so again, even proving that more velocities can be beneficial doesn't prove that they will be beneficial, either in an absolute sense in any particular design, or relative to other possible solutions to the problem.

Obviously very informal, but here is what I recorded early this evening.

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Mike,
You play very well. Thanks for posting this. I am looking forward to playing one of these when they hit the stores. I'll be able to compare it to the PX-575 (which I currently have and like very much). I hope Casio brings this one back at some point with the newer technology.

I'm not quite clear, Mike. Are you saying that even without the USB thumb drive in place, the PX-350 will retain a sequence in its own memory even when it's turned off?

Mike. Fabulous presentation of the PX-350 piano sound. You have made me reconsider my plan for the P-105. The piano sound is excellent and so is your playing.

Congrats to Casio and you for putting out a great board. Will try it out.

Yes.

BFB,
Thanks for watching. As I mentioned at the end of the video the recording of the piano was made on the PX-350 itself. The PX-350 has a slot for a USB thumb drive and can make audio recordings directly to the USB drive.

thanks Mike- i actually pulled my post because i went back and reread the thread and figured that out...

really nice offering. looking forward to trying one soon..

One clarification. The Privia PX-150 will sound identical to the example I posted. The PX-350 however does have additional piano presets not available on the PX-150.