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Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Olek] #2023353
01/29/13 09:42 AM
01/29/13 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Olek
Originally Posted by Maximillyan
Originally Posted by dancarney
I use a similar technique
[Linked Image]

dancarney,the vertical piano need tuning to lever handle only 9-12 (left or right) hand. This method saves the resource mounting seat of wood


YOU WILL UNDERTAND THAT BETTER LATER MAX, DO JUST WHAT WE SAY TO YOU

CERTAINLY NOT RIGHT (15:00) ON A VERTICAL THAT IS THE WORSE FOR THE BED OF THE PIN


I begin to believe you are particularly stupid


Isaac,thank you for your participation and support. Why such large letters? Max may be hard of hearing, but still sees

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Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan] #2023364
01/29/13 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Maximillyan
Originally Posted by Olek
Originally Posted by Maximillyan
Originally Posted by dancarney
I use a similar technique
[Linked Image]

dancarney,the vertical piano need tuning to lever handle only 9-12 (left or right) hand. This method saves the resource mounting seat of wood


YOU WILL UNDERTAND THAT BETTER LATER MAX, DO JUST WHAT WE SAY TO YOU

CERTAINLY NOT RIGHT (15:00) ON A VERTICAL THAT IS THE WORSE FOR THE BED OF THE PIN


I begin to believe you are particularly stupid


Isaac,thank you for your participation and support. Why such large letters? Max may be hard of hearing, but still sees


it is to avoid confusion between important things and others, only. I apologized yet about.

That said if I could write loud to you I sure would wink

I believe you not need to hear more at that time, and first learn to have the string exactly where you want.


Last edited by Olek; 01/29/13 10:05 AM.

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Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan] #2023367
01/29/13 10:17 AM
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Here is another rough tuning with more standard method (the horizontal lever is just because of lazyness and to give a rest to the neck and back !) There is also NO pin setting theren, also due to laziness or lack of technique


[video:youtube]bBv2fYhDj1k[/video]

Rxd will be happy , more than with the last video !

If you want to protect your neck and back, raise more the elbow than there and sit more laterally while holding the lever 13:00

Last edited by Olek; 01/30/13 07:26 AM.

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Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan] #2023389
01/29/13 11:02 AM
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Max.

When you get the chance, translate the last few days of posting. There is a valuable discussion there that you should benefit from.

Do something for me. Forget your homespun philosophy and hold your lever just like the photograph that Dan has thoughtfully posted for you. You won't damage your piano.

In the meantime hang in there, we promise we'll get back to you.

Gentlemen, (edit. I posted this before I saw isaacs recent comic video. I took a long time between starting this post and finishing it. I Have t go out now more later)

I have nothing to add. I like the word springiness, it implies any motion that will spring back.

There are two springy directions, the spring before the pin turns which is felt as a twisting motion just before the pin turns with an unsupported lever, and the spring of flagpoling. Can we define our terms to cover that difference?

I didn't know there was that much flexibility in some pins. I would still ask if it bends in the course of the kind of tuning that we are talking about and would you try to bend one with your favourite tuning tool that you wouldnt risk damaging? Which makers are using them?


Amanda Reckonwith
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"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.


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Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan] #2023529
01/29/13 03:59 PM
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So to say, Max you are not the only one to forget to set the pin.



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Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan] #2023580
01/29/13 05:52 PM
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s I wrote I have bend a few tuning pins in a wise.

I really believe we cannot bend pins without damaging the block

What I was trying to understand is what force is necessary to really change the shape of the pin (as I dont really understand how a poor pinblock can raise in torque only with pin setting method.

I used Klinke pins (the ones in Steinways) you bang on them witha hammer and have a nice imprint , the springiness is a little larger than expected ; what surprized me was the softness of the metal

I used a dynamometer to check a which torque the pin moves on itself, and find a little more than 1 degree when applying a similar torque than a wire.

But of course it was not real conditions, the 1/3 of the threaded part was hold in a vice mostly the upper part was twisting, the torque wrench have a tuning pin shape.

This could be computed, using some formula, I asked a friend who works in an engineer school, but we need to know what exact material is the pin. (and take in account the flex of the pinblock)




Last edited by Olek; 01/29/13 06:04 PM.

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Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Olek] #2023765
01/30/13 12:49 AM
01/30/13 12:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Olek
but we need to know what exact material is the pin. (and take in account the flex of the pinblock)

Isaac,I would also wish to know about the properties of pin. First of all about their strength characteristics. However, European pin probably very different from the Soviet ones. How can I do analizes with this information?

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: rXd] #2023767
01/30/13 01:01 AM
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Originally Posted by rxd
Max.
When you get the chance, translate the last few days of posting. There is a valuable discussion there that you should benefit from.
Do something for me. Forget your homespun philosophy and hold your lever just like the photograph that Dan has thoughtfully posted for you. You won't damage your piano.

rxd,I really try to do it primarily for themselves. However, it is very difficult to understand and take anything into service when I don't see little point of this topic. Yesterday I worked (a photo of Dan) 0 hour to 13, but I feeling that a pin to springs in the opposite direction and did not give me to fix the right tone. Perhaps it is because it is very old vertical "Ukraine" 1958 year......

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Olek] #2023771
01/30/13 01:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Olek
Here is another rough tuning with more standard method (the horizontal lever is just because of lazyness and to give a rest to the neck and back !)
[video:youtube]bBv2fYhDj1k[/video]

This is very harmful video. So you can not tuning the vertical old! Twist here and there a pin. Sitting it is unacceptable. At the end of the piano sounds wrong, it's worse than Max's temperament

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan] #2023855
01/30/13 06:23 AM
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LOok at the way the tuner works at 1:09 :

[video:youtube]3UKmn8OfPNw[/video]

Optimum way to manipulate a tuning lever on a grand.

As the piano is new no very firm pin setting needed at this stage.

Last edited by Olek; 01/30/13 06:24 AM.

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Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan] #2023870
01/30/13 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Maximillyan
Originally Posted by rxd
Max.
When you get the chance, translate the last few days of posting. There is a valuable discussion there that you should benefit from.
Do something for me. Forget your homespun philosophy and hold your lever just like the photograph that Dan has thoughtfully posted for you. You won't damage your piano.

rxd,I really try to do it primarily for themselves. However, it is very difficult to understand and take anything into service when I don't see little point of this topic. Yesterday I worked (a photo of Dan) 0 hour to 13, but I feeling that a pin to springs in the opposite direction and did not give me to fix the right tone. Perhaps it is because it is very old vertical "Ukraine" 1958 year......


Max. I hope I'm understanding you right. The pin springing in the opposite direction is what you should feel. Simply pull the string sharp by the same amount that it springs back. That way the pin spring back onto the pitch and will be better set. You may have to play the key a bit harder but not brutal to make sure the friction points of the string are dealt with. You will eventually begin to feel all this in the pin, You will develop a whole range of different types of manipulation of the pin. Confine yourself to the middle notes right now. I think they're easier.

When the pitch is about right, use this spring you are experiencing in a slight very small rocking motion above and below the pitch a couple of times until the spring gets less and the pitch is right. With practice you will make the spring go away entirely The pitch will stay there better. Make sure your thumb is on the side of the handle and certainly not on the front like the person in the blue shirt video.

The way you were doing it before, you were not feeling this spring and so were not in control. The spring was there and so was the effect of Flagpoling but the combined effect was that you were feeling neither. It may feel strange, even awkward for a while to do it like Dans photo. Please persevere. Feeling what you feel is progress With more thumb pressure at the side of the lever, the springiness will be less. With the right balance between the thumb pressure and the fingers pulling and the elbow high enough you will sometimes be able to turn the pin in very small increments without any spring. Practice practice practice.

"feel the spring"

" the spring is our friend" it tells us where we are.

Read what Johnkie says about this in his last two posts.

Anything to add or clarify, John? Im not sure I was very clear, ( too many words) perhaps you could put it another way or point out where I might be misconstrued.

Last edited by rxd; 01/30/13 07:21 AM.

Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.


Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan] #2023888
01/30/13 07:46 AM
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As say RXD you need that spring to move the string, and to set if firmly.

In fine the spring is not "gone" but it is counter acted by the spring of the wire.

To be sure of the correct equilibrium of tension between the tuning pin and the spring after having done those back and forth motions many tuners use a light Push and Pull test:

Just when you finish to set the pin and string, at this moment the wire is yet free enough, on many pianos, so you can change its pitch by a LIGHT BENDING (lightly) UP and DOWN.

You listen to the tone change :

The tone must raise more easily than it lowers (about 1/3 2/3)

That mean that the pin is not only set , but it actively participate to the locking of the wire.

If you choose for a neutral setting, you may be able to rock the pin with similar tone change up and down, that is how I was instructed.

That way the pin is neutral, that mean it is yet stressed by the wire but get back to its position at rest, so you don't feel the spring so much.
You can feel in in the bending motion.

If you move back and forth the hammer and the final pitch is too low or too high, the relation between the pin and the wire is incorrect.

I do not speak of bending a pin like that (it needed around 40-50 Kg pressure) but using the last springiness really perceptible in the pin

[Linked Image]


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Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan] #2023893
01/30/13 08:08 AM
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The pin is springing in a very light helical shape when you raise the pitch.

Then you may at last unstress that deformation or make it active the other direction, which is more difficult.

That helical motion allow the tuning pin to jump in the block by very small increments.

Tuning a piano is like manipulating a very long spring by an extremity . the spring is made in motion by the impacts of the hammer, and the torque you have allowed it is then released.


To experiment what level of springiness a tuning pin have, just install it in a vice and test with your tuning hammer.

IF you install it horizontal and put a 70-80Kg weight on the handle of the lever, you will see how much motion may happen.

There are 2 moves as said RXD, the twist (helical) because the tuning pin is inserted in the walls of the pinblock
And the bending (we control bending by putting the hammer in a position it is not favoured )

But the most twist and bends are allowed, the more springy your pin will be and this may be at our advantage , for instance on a piano with the strings that move too easily, we use more bending and twisting on the upper part of the tuning pin, and play hard enough so the wave coming from the string "unlock" the bottom of the pin . Then you hear a "crack" and you feel the motion, and you are sure the bottom of the pin have changed orientation.

It is there of the utmost importance that the pressure is not damaging the hole at the place the string will push the tuning pin in the end.

SO starters learn to manipulate the hammer first perfectly in the rotation plane of the pin.

All the job done without feeling the bottom moving is useless and will move as soon you leave the pin.
Even first grade tuners experiment very light motion of a wire sometime even with a very firm pin setting.

Playing often and strong enough the note allow to be sure of that.



Last edited by Olek; 01/30/13 08:10 AM.

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Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan] #2023933
01/30/13 09:34 AM
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At 2:30 +- you see how the pin is worked (on a very new piano)

[video:youtube]lmkJ9w_1Lsk[/video]

On older blocks you need to support more the lever an the pin is harder to feel, you feel more the force of the string than the one of the pin.


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Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan] #2023950
01/30/13 09:57 AM
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Update. We had piano competition Sunday. 4-5 Returning student now doin advanced degrees, under academic teachers. One or two of them broke strings. I finally repaired them this morning. Pleasantly gratified that the string breaking pianos were last tuned during my revisit with the T-hammer. Both pianos that had been played with string breaking vulgarity stayed in tune amazingly. they had done well for 2-3 weeks. Score the string breakers came in. Surprised myself, to be honest. I used only rotational movements, even though the handle on my T- hammer wrings slightly (some rotational lost motion) and used only very light flagpoling in order to locate the point of balance from that aspect. Finishing with a very slight clockwise and flagpole towards me if I felt I could "afford" it and I sensed drag in the rather steep capo and elsewhere. Mostly on the pins nearest me and near the breaks. The ones with good follow I could finish with a slight counter lock wise and forward motion. There were times that I wanted to simply turn the pin as I can with my lever but couldn't. Could be a lack of fully developed technique on
my part.

These are reasonably good quality pinblocks on pianos 15 yrs old one x top two restring. the other pianos were better pin blocks, same age. Same results. Probably less savage use.

The tuning operation went slightly faster too. I completed each unison as I progressed the way I normally do.

Just one persons experience, but there it is for anyone interested.

Last edited by rxd; 01/30/13 10:27 AM.

Amanda Reckonwith
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Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan] #2023959
01/30/13 10:11 AM
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Good idea, I will try , now that I use a "full twisting" technique I will possibly have a similar surprise.

What is difficult with a T hammer is to wave the pin to obtain the very little motion of the pin foot if the note really untuned.

Did you have to move the bottom of the pin on most notes when tuning with the T hammer ? on regularely tuned pianos, often only the equilibrium between speking lenght and front segment of pin is to be reinstalled. then the bottom of the pin have to be moved only if you leave a "neutral" setting.

Possibly overpull is larger with the T hammer, hence string fatigue, what do you think ?


When I tune , those days, I "tune with the playing hand" a lot, and I "listen to the pin" with the lever wink

Last edited by Olek; 01/30/13 10:18 AM.

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Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: rXd] #2024023
01/30/13 12:26 PM
01/30/13 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by rxd
Originally Posted by Maximillyan
Originally Posted by rxd
Max.
When you get the chance, translate the last few days of posting. There is a valuable discussion there that you should benefit from.
Do something for me. Forget your homespun philosophy and hold your lever just like the photograph that Dan has thoughtfully posted for you. You won't damage your piano.

rxd,I really try to do it primarily for themselves. However, it is very difficult to understand and take anything into service when I don't see little point of this topic. Yesterday I worked (a photo of Dan) 0 hour to 13, but I feeling that a pin to springs in the opposite direction and did not give me to fix the right tone. Perhaps it is because it is very old vertical "Ukraine" 1958 year......


Max. I hope I'm understanding you right. The pin springing in the opposite direction is what you should feel. Simply pull the string sharp by the same amount that it springs back. That way the pin spring back onto the pitch and will be better set. You may have to play the key a bit harder but not brutal to make sure the friction points of the string are dealt with. You will eventually begin to feel all this in the pin, You will develop a whole range of different types of manipulation of the pin. Confine yourself to the middle notes right now. I think they're easier.


I see.rxd,all true. If I understand you correctly, I'm need to increase the tension of the string, when I'm tuning the old pinblock of a piano. I'm doing "slightly restring" toward overestimation tone. Then the pressure of the string pin is set in his seat and gives the correct string of tone. All three strings in the chorus should sound without beats, so I spend some time watching the "behavior of the pins" that it's got in the last position. If it has a small frictions a pin with the wood hole.

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: rXd] #2024027
01/30/13 12:32 PM
01/30/13 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by rxd
I used only rotational movements, even though the handle on my T- hammer wrings slightly (some rotational lost motion) and used only very light flagpoling in order to locate the point of balance from that aspect. Finishing with a very slight clockwise and flagpole towards me if I felt I could "afford" it and I sensed drag in the rather steep capo and elsewhere. Mostly on the pins nearest me and near the breaks.

What was the need to tuning this piano with T-hammer? Very tight pins?

Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan] #2024089
01/30/13 02:41 PM
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If what you wrote is from your experience and not merely repeating what you have read, then I think you are getting it. Some terms you use are not quite exact but, with the language difficulty, it sounds good enough to me. More practice unisons. If you want variety, try an octave getting 6 strings as beatless as you can.

I used the T- hammer for a few days so that everything I wrote about it here was from direct experience and I needed to refresh my memory. It also provides some variety for me. To many posters on here repeat what they think they have been told or what they imagine might happen with no practical experience.
I can only write from my own direct experience.

So a short, partial answer to why I tuned those pianos with a T- hammer would be, for you.

Now forget it for the time being because you have gone back to the lever. Stay with that and concentrate on it.

Practice.

Last edited by rxd; 01/30/13 02:47 PM. Reason: Rogue spellchecker

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"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.


Re: What think technicians about of max's temperament? [Re: Maximillyan] #2024098
01/30/13 03:00 PM
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As I understand things T hammers were more suited to tuning early pianos. Modern instruments have planks that are very much firmer generally. Although tuning can in theory still be completed using them, the reality is that it is much more difficult to obtain ease of wrestpin movement, and the wrist strength needed can be considerable.

I imagine RxD, like me, is so used to merely having to touch up instruments that he tunes on such a regular basis, that wrestpin movement is rarely needed. In such cases the use 5of the humble T hammer can easily achieve the tiny adjustments needed to bring any minor tuning issues back into line.

Once again this underlines the need to be able to read the wrestpin. Good quality tuners rarely need anything other than tiny wrestpin adjustments, more akin to settling it back into its own comfortable postion, as opposed to adding unequalised stress through inflicting actual movement within the plank.

I don't regard many posts here are helping Max in the slightest. They are far too advanced and complicated even for the more experienced members here who have a command of English.

He should start again from the basics .... concentrating on being able to demonstrate clean unisons and octaves, slowly progressing to temperament and intervals ... but only after grasping the concept and being able to demonstrate clean unisons and octaves. His attitude often comes across as confrontational rather than indicating a genuine wish to improve.

He has a long road to travel, and unless he can begin to demonstrate progress within a reasonable time frame, instead of arguing and confronting those prepared to offer their good advice, whilst at the same time, continuing to promote himself as a "Teacher" ... then perhaps we should waste no further time and save our breath for those more worthy.


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Thomas Young 1 temperament measured
by Hakki. 01/21/19 10:08 AM
Debussy - Arabesque No. 1
by cmb13. 01/21/19 09:11 AM
Saving to WAV or MP3 on a Kawai CA
by Garald. 01/21/19 08:26 AM
Naming convention of classical pieces
by Artur Gajewski. 01/21/19 08:16 AM
Help, pain when playing the piano!
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