Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Adult Beginners Forum The Slow Gene, do you have it?

Way off on the math.

1 hr per day, 6 days per week, 50 weeks a year (chop off two for math convenience) = 300 hours practice.

It will take you over 30 years of that type practice to get anywhere near the 10,000 mastery hours.

...sorry to kill that optimistic formula.

NOW, 3 hours a day for a year is around 1000/year. THAT is 10 years practice for 10,000 hours of mastery. And if you are really determined and geeky, you can put in a couple extra hours each weekend day making 4 extra hours a week and 200 extra every year.

1200 hrs/year brings about 8 years (or more) to get to 10,000 hours or play and practice. If a hobbyist is REALLY into it, I can see them easily getting brilliant in 8 years.

Don't forget that after about 2000 hours it begins to loosen up, 3000 (as someone said) is when the reading and playing really begin to come more naturally, and by 5000 hours you should be sitting down and having hours fly past you as you play and play. It helps to have a lot of theory behind you in those first 3000 hours, as well.

Chopin_r_us, How would that apply to typing? How come I type at 60 wpm after thousands of hours of typing, and my friend can do 200 wpm? You seem to say it is myelin or left/right brain interference? How does one overcome those obstacles? Or if one can't, how is my theory off? If those limits are hard wired, then those are the factors that play a large role in determining a person's speed limit.

Cmajor, that is very interesting data. I think I am above average in terms of relaxation for a beginner pianist. In my case, I believe it comes from flute training where literally no sound comes out if a person is too tense. That and my confident attitude when performing in public. If relaxation is a key, then meditation, yoga, breathing exercises, and other relaxation techniques might be ways to more speed on the instrument. I see very little mention of proper breathing when playing piano. Are relaxation and tension, areas that would be inclusive of proper breathing?

Kbfanatic, that is a great story. Perhaps there is hope for all that responded to the affirmative to this thread, or at least a percentage of us. I wonder what it was in your case that limited your speed, and what it is that limits the speed of others that responded to this thread.

RustyFoursome, thanks for the math correction. Those corrected numbers are sobering. So 10 years for a hobbyist (one hour per day most days) to get to 3000 hours and perhaps a proficiency level.

I don't think it can be overcome. It is the difference between quick witted people and slow witted people. The quality of thoughts are not necessarily effected either way, only speed of access. I'm quite convinced it's mainly connected with the myelin growth pattern in the early (up to 18 months) years with a bit of genetics thrown in. As myelin is an insulator maybe left/right brain interference (leaking) is also implicated?

I've built up my speed quite a bit and now I realize that you really have to work those "fast twitch muscles" separately. I personally don't think it's going to happen doing the "play slow and speed will come automatically" approach.

The play slow works to a point. Of course you still need it to develop accuracy. But without the fast twitch muscles being activated (practiced), there will be a limit.

The approach to playing super-fast, I find, is completely different. You have to balance the effort of digging in deep in the keys (which you need for tone) vs. the need to use the least amount of muscular power (if you don't your fingers lock up).

I don't know if people are limited neurogically from developing the fast-twitch but since I'm a fast typist, then I figure I had it in me.

But to summarize my opinion: Playing fast -- It has to be practiced.

I guess the "someone said in the other thread" was me. So +1.

I think I'm a counterexample of this. I'm quick at repartee. When it comes to math/physics/computers, I can learn in a weekend what it takes a class a quarter to cover (and set the curve on the exam). When I'm solving obscure math problems, I see the solution in a half-second lightning flash (though it may take quite a long time to write it all out).

But when it comes to physical coordination, I'm klutzy and spastic, and a remarkably very slow learner. Always the last chosen for a team in projectile sports. Classic geek material.

But, (now for something completely different) I'd been following all the recent discussions on slow practice, and I've slowed down my practice when learning a new piece to "as slow as you can go". It's really worked wonders. So my thanks to to all you proponents of (and recent converts to) slow practice!

Maybe you're not. I'm the same with theory - it's a kind of vision thing isn't it? You can see the solution so easily and wonder why others can't. In jazz for instance I can hear the progressions and understand the structure in real time but I can't do the reverse very well i.e. take a chord structure from memory and do things with it in real time. It's my executive function - retrieving something from memory - not the vision thing - seeing patterns/structures, that's weak.

Yeah, my experience also indicates that there's probably to what you're saying

At the piano, I've noticed that I'm more spastic when I lack an extremely clear and detailed idea of where I'm wanting to move. That's kind of where the slow practice thing comes in -- I can develop a clearer sense of... ?"destination"? for my fingers that way, which seems to resolve my tendency to just randomly spaz out.

And as far as some people requiring physical tasks, it's just takes me a really long time to get there. I think the spazzing does in general have something to do with knowing I need to move fast but not having a clear enough sense of where I need togo.

ETA: No idea what i was trying to say in the last paragraph That's what i get for posting while drinking my morning coffee :P

#70 for a shi-tzu....no wonder my husband calls my dog 'dope,e-o' his name is romeo....I love him just the same...


I never wanted to use any brain matter [ or myelin] to memorize the keys on a typewriter....I still look at the keyboard...

but the piano...I can play with my eyes closed....

rada

Only took one typing class during the summer when I was a kid. I don't hunt and peck and can type faster than my co-workers, but I certainly wasn't hired for my typing skills.

I can't play piano with my eyes closed, but can play much of my music without looking down at the keys. I do practice sight reading every day and since that forces me to look ahead it does help me play my small repertoire faster. It takes me quite a while to get up to tempo, but it's hard to blame it on genetics, or ability to stay focused, or the length of time I practice, or my wasted years when I didn't have a piano, or when I didn't practice everyday.

All in all, I'm probably the Airedale in the Greyhound race. Way ahead of the Basset Hound, but still far back from the leader (unless I get distracted by a lizard or a squeaky toy and then even the English Bulldog beats me).

Wouter, take care you don't give yourself tendonitus. Do you have a teacher to check that youre doing all this practicing with the right posture and at the right height and angle (arm and wrist position in relation to the keyboard)?

To round out the discussion there was this short thread on the pianist forum:

Speed a Mental Issue?
https://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubb...eed%20%20a%20mental%20issue?.html#UNREAD

and this older, longer and more contentious one from 2011:

A little mentioned limitation...
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1805452/1.html

I see the hearing arguments in the longer thread as a non-starter because it wouldn't explain the wide disparities in typing speeds. I see typing as a closely correlated skill, which also requires training and practice time to get to top speed. There is no hearing involved in typing, and no music related tension, only perhaps the tension from fear of making mistakes. Similarly trained typists with similar levels of experience will tend to max out at widely different speeds.

I may ask my friend, the former concert pianist, for his thoughts on speed, though he might have a limited data set. I don't see him very often, but if I get a chance, I'll report back.

I want to add about us getting in our own way. Often our trying is exactly what stops us from performing. In this case it is speed. I learned this is running. Every time I would think about it and strive. I would slow. Had a guy screaming at me: "Quit trying! Just move your legs at that speed! Quit trying! Just do it!"

I've seen this in many ways. It's like our ego tries to take over. Yes it is effort. But it only serves to get in our way. I've experienced this in creativity, sophistication of movement, every task in life. We need to die to ourselves. Dig deeper within ourselves to our hearts. That is where music lies. Our hearts. Let it flow. Experience it. Just do it.

Back to slow-ness. Another example of some inherent tendency. How many of you ski? Some people feel a need to ski fast down the black diamond slopes. Some prefer mostly slow green slopes with an occasional blue for excitement. Yes, I believe the ability to relax and trust the body plays a big role. If the mind wants to maintain an active cognitive role then it second guesses every move the body makes (leading to slow). If the person is able to focus on the course ahead (or composition) the subconscious mind controls and speed can be there.

FarmGirl,

I think some of the hurdles that people encounter when they study the piano is because many people think they can multi task. In reality, that is just not possible. People, like dogs, can only focus on one thing at a time. Those who think they are multi tasking are simply shifting focus from one thing to another. This has been proven over and over again in a multitude of studies. Granted, some people can shift focus faster than others but they cannot focus on more than one thing at any given moment in time. People who think they are great "multi-taskers" can place themselves and others in dangerous situations.

In music, as you point out, you have to go a bit deeper than just pure concentration... you have to feel the piece if listeners are going to share your interpretation of, and emotional connection, to the piece. You can cultivate a dog's natural drive and focus so that they can perform some extraordinary tasks but only in a mechanical fashion. Their emotions are limited to wanting to please the handler and the desire for the eventual reward. You will never be able to train a dog to play "Moonlight Sonata" with the necessary emotion even if they had hands.

I think that when the dust settles and all the POV's and arguments have been put forth it all boils down to the old truths that practice makes perfect and accuracy trumps speed.

C major - thanks for your insight. I enjoy reading about dogs since i have two of them and my ex-piano teacher / friend is into dog agility training now. It turned out she could teach a dog as well (LOL) - her dog just went to AKC national to compete.

All - sorry for derailing from the subject. Now let me write something on the topic. To me, playing faster involves at least two skills - dexterousness of hands and quick eye movement. The former has been discussed in details here. Dexterousness helps us play fast runs fast and accurately through practice. One can usually handle fast runs in time with practice.

For me, the latter is more problematic. I am talking about having to play fast pieces that involve lots of hops and jumps of chord (more than an octave) in both hands - they must be executed quickly. I was failing in this miserably. It seemed like when my left hand land on the correct place, left hand missed the spot by a note or two. What helped me was my teacher's guidance. She slowed down and break down the passage that gave me trouble with and demonstrated where and how her eyes are moving, like "your eyes should be looking at C4 - G4 area when your left hand hit the chord (E5flat - C5 - E6flat). After landed there safely (while remembering that right hand is in staccato and left is legato), give one quick glance (Very quickly, fraction of a second) at the right hand as it leaps from C4-G4 chord to E5 flat - E6 Octave chord. After hitting the chord, bring your eyes immediately back to G4 area so that your left hand can land on D4 - G4 chord in time." The right hands are leaping as well but if I move my eyes as she instructed, I can keep the right hand movement in the vicinity so that I can execute both hands in time. She told me for some people the quick eye movement comes naturally but for all others it must be learnt. Eye movement is something to think about when we discuss speed.

That's probably the secret of good sight reading - knowing where to direct your eyes at all times. You have an amazing teacher if they're teaching you that.

Chopin_r_us
Yes, I do have an amazing teacher. Sometimes she draws in a picture of an eye on the copy of the score when I need to move my eyes fast. She is probably treating me just like kids in her studio but I don't mind (LOL). I need the same basics taught anyway.

In a previous life, as a kid in an orchestra I was taught to draw glasses over passages which needed extra attention during performance - it worked!

My biggest problem is I overthink.

I was never good at 'speed math' games because I have no confidence in my ability to get a problem right (even multiplication tables or simple addition) the first time, and I have to double and triple check my results before I'm willing to say it out loud.

I freak myself out when I play a passage "too fast"...the self-talk goes something like "Oh wow this is going really fast can I keep it up without screwing up" (at which point I either tense up and slow down or try to 'over-control' and slow down or simply fumble).

I could never imagine myself doing something like downhill skiing where you have to be 'in the zone' like that.

I noticed my typing speed went WAY up when typing became 'word processing' and the "cost" of making an error went down (those who learned to type on actual Type Writers know what I mean). Correcting a mistake on a computer is so much easier, so I'm not "afraid" to make one.