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Mozart said something very interesting about genius:
"Neither a lofty degree of intelligence nor imagination nor both together go to the making of genius. Love, love, love, that is the soul of genius."
You have to love what you are doing, that's why parents should never "push" their children.
Over the past few years, I have tried to find something I could relate to in so-called societies for gifted people (I won't mention their names here because names are irrelevant). What counts is that in such societies most people totally lack passion and in spite of a high IQ haven't done nothing with their lives. Most of these societies have really disappointed me and I have left them with a sense of bitterness inside (I did make some friends, but some bad people really ostracized me and viciously condemned me because of my illness, which, of course, can be considered discrimination, although I have a passion they don't have and do many things I adore which also gave me an entry in Who's Who of Australian Women while they just "sit" on their IQ...)

Anyway, back to the real geniuses, only posterity can tell I think. I agree with Elene that originality is a must for a genius to be remembered.

About playing for memory and practice, they say that Mozart heard Allegri's Miserere only ONCE when he was 14 and wrote it down entirely from memory on the same day. This has always impressed me because my memory is not exactly the best...

CA

Don't worry about the confusion, Kathleen

Hey, this is my 100th post!

The technical definition of a genius doesn't mean much. It's just about IQ points and how many one needs to get into Mensa. They're surprizingly common. You probably know a few, might even be one yourself and not even know it. Being a genius is like being a thoroughbred - there's a lot of them out there - tons actually - but how many are Secretariat?

In any case Chopin was way beyond genius by any definition.

Frycek: I have yet to listen to a fugue, but I will certainly take your word for it that they demand a bit of practice. I agree about Chopin's level of genius.

Congrats on your 100th post, ChopinAddict. And I hope you will continue to post here on a regular basis because you raise such great topics for discussion. That you found so many societies where the people were high on IQ but low on compassion does not come as a surprise to me. I think they, as a whole, are usually self-centered and feel superior to the rest of us. I had my IQ tested many years ago. It was 140, which really floored me and I questioned it. I fairly certain that it has slipped considerably since then.

I remember seeing that movie: "A Beautiful Mind," which starred that "hunk" Russell Crowe as the schizophrenic, John Forbes Nash. He was definitely a genius. And I remember actually sobbing when he was awarded the Nobel Prize. Perhaps I am a little biased about people with mental disorders, and he, especially was really extremely troubled. The movie portrayed him as a gentle and sweet person, however insane. But when I read the book, he turned out to be...well, not a very nice person at all. Which, to me, would make more sense.

Kathleen

Does anyone remember that Classical Archieve web site that was devoted strictly to Chopin? You could play an exerpt from most of his compositions and download the sheet music, just twice a month, free. Otherwise you had to enrolled.

Thanks,
Kathleen

There are different types of IQ. First there is the normal IQ that we usually think of. Then there is emotional IQ which tests your ability to understand people's emotions and act accordingly. I believe that to be a genius you need to be high in both these areas.

That is true, although I am not sure EQ is always correct. I scored up to 170+ on IQ tests and just above average on EQ, but I am VERY sensitive. I can't even listen to Chopin without crying. Because life wasn't meant to be easy, I have become sort of bitter sometimes, although I am still young, but I really like to help people and have even an email address specifically to help people, although I am really not a fan of emails because I am very busy with my projects.... But I like to help. I might have taken the wrong EQ test, maybe I can try a new one. Do you know of any good EQ test?

Do you mean this, Kathleen? http://www.classicalarchives.com/chopin.html (it is not devoted exclusively to our hero though)
There were two sites I have in my Favourites devoted exclusively to Chopin but they have been taken down...
You can download all sorts of scores from here: http://imslp.org/wiki/Main_Page
Or MIDI files here without logging in (you can download up to 5 files a day I think): http://www.kunstderfuge.com/chopin.htm

I hope this helps...

CA

I am not really knocking down everyone with a high IQ. At the end of this month somebody is visiting from the US, and he is REALLY very smart and also compassionate. He basically left the HiQ world too and had formed a small group where the rule was "no bragging". Unfortunately the group is not active any more.
Call me crazy, but I have just joined a new society because now and then you do meet nice people, so I thought I would give it a go...
Congratulations on you IQ test, Kathleen. It is an excellent score.

Yes, I know "A Beautiful Mind". It is an excellent movie I really loved.

CA

I remember the site Kathleen is thinking about. Unfortunately it hasn't been around in quite awhile- a couple of years, I think. It had an extensive collection and was a good place to "audition," literally, one's next piece.

I have just found this: http://www.chopinmusic.net/home/
I haven't "tested" it yet, but it looks promising...

CA

I am not very familiar with EQ tests, I just know of them, so I can't point you in the direction a good one I'm afraid. I think the reason they are not always accurate is because it is much more difficult to test than your IQ. With IQ, there is only one definitive correct answer to a question whereas with an EQ test, there may more than one solution for a situation, depending on the person that may be in the situation. So your answer may be right, but not the "correct" answer. I hope you understand what i mean. Unless i'm mistaken with how the test works?

This is interesting about the relationship between creativity and mental illness, in particular bipolar disorder: http://counsellingresource.com/features/2009/09/21/creativity-and-mental-illness/
And this too: http://www.tryst3.com/issue2/article.html
And many more....

CA

Yes, I understand what you mean...
Besides, I think some people could "cheat" to have a high score on an EQ test as one cannot prove that the testee is answering the questions honestly... One would need a lie detector...

CA

ChopinAddict:

ChopinAddict: WOW! Thank you so much for those sites. Some are better than others, but I think they will prove very helpful. I appreciate your taking the time to post them. And the article were right on!

As far as bipolar illness and creativity, we have had this discussion before. Frycek believes that Chopin suffered from this disorder, while I do not. But I have since changed my mind. I know when depression hits, there are not artistic juices flowing. So it has to be when a person is in the manic phase, that that creative phase takes hold. And we know that so many creative people refuse to take any medication to ease or subdue the ups and downs at bit because they know that the meds can and do often leave an individual emotional barren. Like a zombie is often their mantra. You may find this article interesting
http://www.oflikeminds.com/KayRedfieldJamison.htm

She suffered from the disorder all her life and yet managed to attain a high level of achievement. I read her book: “Touched With Fire and found it extremely hopeful as well as inspiring. She writes about some of the famous artists of the past and present who, undeniably, had/have this disorder, and it is amazing what they accomplished.

I know, quite well, the swings of mood. I once wallpapered 10 rather large rooms in our last home in 4 days. Then, of course, I didn’t touch the piano for many years because it represented frustration, disappointment and depression for me.

I wish you well and hope you can find a group of people with whom you will feel comfortable. But, for me, I think I find my own company the most understanding (if that makes sense).


BTW, I am certain that the level of my IQ was vastly overrated.

I’ve never heard of an emotional IQ test. It sounds intriguing. But the problem with it might be the way it is interpreted. How can one person determine the mental and emotional stability of another? Especially if the person who is being tested is artistically-bent. I would think that a test on the maturity of a person would be more valid. But again, what is a mature and rational thought or action to me might be just the opposite to another. In the end, I believe it is impossible and even dangerous for one human to determine the level of sanity of another. Of course, there are those who are truly insane and out of control and are a danger to themselves and others. But I am referring to people who are a little or perhaps a lot different from the rest of society. Some of these individuals might very well be geniuses and prefer to be alone and free from outside interferences. I think that only then can they kindle that spark that dwells within.

My best and thank you all for your help. As always I can count on this thread to keep me informed and often entertained.

Kathleen

Thank you for the link to that very interesting article, Kathleen!
As for the EQ test, the test I took was more about socializing than empathy, and I am really not a social butterfly. I am not interested in fair-weather friends and idle chatting (that must be why I have no friends...) I don't think it was well done....

CA

PS: I find my own company very intriguing too...
PS2: One day I will show you a link to my books and CDs...

ChopinAddict: You will ALWAYS find friends here...no matter what the weather.

Kathleen

Thank you, Kathleen!

CA

ChopinAddict, unfortunately, the www.chopinmusic.net site is not all that it could be. The biographical information is so inaccurate that it makes one wonder what in the world the author was looking at. For example, it says that Our Guy's first published composition was his Rondo, at age 15, whereas of course it was a polonaise at age 7. The "Trivia Quiz" has similar problems. One could forgive a slip such as any of us might make, but when so much is so slipshod, it's hard to deal with. If one loves a subject enough to create a website about it, why not attempt to do it well? The site could have been great. I just took another look to see if anything had been fixed, and it hadn't as far as I could tell.

(Sorry. I know we discussed this before. And of course this person got himself together to create a website, which I haven't managed to do, so I have to give him credit for that.)

I have been following the discussion of IQ, EQ and the measurement of intelligence with great interest. I have too many thoughts about it to put here, but I would recommend the book that Steven told us about some months ago, The Talent Code, and also Outliers. Among other things, they have a lot to say about the kind of people ChopinAddict mentioned, who have very high measured intelligence but don't do much with it.

My daughter and most of her friends were labeled "gifted" in school. I got to thinking about how many different kinds of intelligence they represent among them. My husband, who teaches elementary special ed, often tells me about students who have tremendous deficits in some areas and great abilities in others. I don't think this is unusual-- his students are more dramatic examples, but we're all like that to some extent. So how "intelligent" is a kid who's a whiz at math but can't decode written words, or vice versa?

I don't know my own IQ. I was always in the 99th percentile on all those standardized tests in school, which proves nothing except that I was really good at taking a certain kind of test. I'm not so swift with puzzles and brain teasers, which are also sometimes used as measures of intelligence. And while I've had a superb visual memory, which helped greatly in getting through higher education, I seem to be developmentally disabled when it comes to memorizing music, which you'd think would be the same skill! I am working hard lately at learning to do it, and treating my brain like a small child, trying to be as compassionate with it as I would be with one of my own students. After all, my poor brain is trying, and telling it how stupid it is doesn't help!

The author of Outliers pointed out that beyond a certain minimum level of intelligence, it is only necessary to be smart enough, in the IQ-type sense. Then other factors and abilities become more important. I think it's safe to say that everyone who posts here is smart enough.

With regard to Chopin playing a long series of pieces from the WTC at a stretch from memory: The person who reported on this asked how he'd been able to do it, and he replied something like, "You don't forget a thing like that." Maybe not-- if you can ever manage to remember it in the first place!

Elene

Yes, I found that site to be inaccurate too... I had just found it when I posted the link and had warned I had not tested it...
This is the danger of the Internet I think. There are heaps of sites full of inaccuracies and even blatant mistakes. I have written essays on poetry forms and preferred to go to the library to research them. I love libraries, but I am not an Internet fan...

CA