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#481555 - 09/04/07 02:22 PM Difficulty: from Chopin Nocturne Op 9#2 to "op 27 #2"  
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Hello,

I was wondering what peoples thoughts might be on the relative difficulty from these two Nocurnes by Chopin, First, the one I can play (note perfect most times): Op 9 No 2 (3 flats - and very well-know piece), and Nocturne Op 27 NO 2 (5 flats).

I want to learn this nocturne op 27 #2, but wondering if its too hard for me to play (I don't do lessons/grades, but have played Grade 8 pieces before - and many a while ago tackled a ballade). What Grade would this be?, and how difficult in comparison to the OP 9 is it?.

I've had a look through the music, and as well the "48" notes (to 12 quavers) , the piece as a whole looks quite difficult - but is it "MUCH" harder than the OP 9 (which i can play with "room" to spare).

What is the Grade of the Nocturne I play At the moment (Op9) (not seen it in a grade listing)


TIA smile

Antonio

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#481556 - 09/04/07 02:37 PM Re: Difficulty: from Chopin Nocturne Op 9#2 to "op 27 #2"  
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Antonion ;

In the RCM syllabus, the Op 9 No 2 Nocturne is Grade 9 - possibly Grade 5 or 6 in the ABRSM, but the Op 27 No 2 is diploma level.

The Db major Nocturne is considerably more difficult than the rather straightforward Op 9 No 2 on so many levels, techical and interpretive. I don't think it would be a logical next step after the Op 9 No 2.

Regards,


BruceD
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#481557 - 09/04/07 02:51 PM Re: Difficulty: from Chopin Nocturne Op 9#2 to "op 27 #2"  
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Thanks Bruce - I still want to learn it though! (my Dad perfected it).

Would be interested in a list of Nocturnes; and there "difficulty" Rating, like:

1.Op 15 No 2 Grade <8>
2.Op 9 No 3 Grade <10>

(From people who play them/all Etc - ) smile


Antonio

#481558 - 09/04/07 03:12 PM Re: Difficulty: from Chopin Nocturne Op 9#2 to "op 27 #2"  
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As far as grading is concerned - a fairly relative categorization - I can only offer what RCM (Canada) has in its syllabus for the Nocturnes. Remember that RCM goes from Grade 1 to Grade 10, then the ARCT diploma.

Grade 8:
Nocturne in G minor, Op 15, No 3

Grade 9:
Nocturne in Eb major, Op 9, No 2
Nocturne in B major, Op 32, No 1
Nocturne in G minor, Op 37, No 1
Nocturne in F minor, Op 55, No 1
Nocturne in C# minor, No 20 (Op. Posth.)

Grade 10:
Nocturne in Bb minor, Op 9, No 1
Nocturne in F major, Op 15, No 1
Nocturne in F sharp major, Op 15, No 2
Nocturne in Ab major, Op 32, No 2
Nocturne in E minor, Op 72, No 1

ARCT :
Nocturne in C# minor, Op 27, No 1
Nocturne in Db major, Op 27, No 2
Nocturne in G major, Op 37, No 2
Nocturne in C minor, Op 48, No 1
Nocturne in Eb major, Op 55, No 2
Nocturne in B major, Op 62, No 1

I hope this helps to give you some idea of the relative difficulty of the Nocturnes.

Regards,


BruceD
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#481559 - 09/04/07 03:49 PM Re: Difficulty: from Chopin Nocturne Op 9#2 to "op 27 #2"  
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Where do you find these lists of grades? I'm from New York, so we have a NYSSMA level thing, but that's way screwed up. There are only six levels, and Level six contains both Rustles of Spring and Rach Prelude in G minor. I think it would be really useful when I find a piece I like to be able to formulate a way to move up to it.


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#481560 - 09/04/07 04:05 PM Re: Difficulty: from Chopin Nocturne Op 9#2 to "op 27 #2"  
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Quote
Originally posted by thepianist2008:
Where do you find these lists of grades? I'm from New York, so we have a NYSSMA level thing, but that's way screwed up. There are only six levels, and Level six contains both Rustles of Spring and Rach Prelude in G minor. I think it would be really useful when I find a piece I like to be able to formulate a way to move up to it.
thepianist2008:

Whenever I respond to questions concerning the grade-level of a piece, I am referring to the current piano examination syllabus of the Royal Conservatory of Music (Toronto). It is always a very handy reference for indicating the relative level of difficulty of compared pieces when taken in its context, that being that the grading system goes from Grade 1 to Grade 10, followed by the Performer's and/or Teacher's diploma examination, called the ARCT exam.

It is also quite comprehensive; by the time one gets to the Grade 10 list of examination pieces, there are some 20, 30, 40, or even more than 50 pieces from the standard repertoire in each of five categories: A: Bach; B: Classical Sonatas; C: Romantic Repertoire; D: 20th-century Repertoire; E: (later) 20th-century repertoire.

Regards,


BruceD
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#481561 - 09/04/07 04:52 PM Re: Difficulty: from Chopin Nocturne Op 9#2 to "op 27 #2"  
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Antonio, as you are based in the UK perhaps it would help for you to have the approximate British grades. In Eleanor Bailie's "Pianist's Repertoire: Chopin - a graded practical guide" she lists 9/2 as grade 7 and 27/2 as grade 8. I have generally found her estimations to be fairly accurate, given that it's really rather subjective.

I hope you enjoy both of these gorgeous Preludes and will let us hear a recording of your final version on the "Devoted to Chopin" thread on the Adult Beginners' Forum. Happy playing!

#481562 - 09/04/07 05:05 PM Re: Difficulty: from Chopin Nocturne Op 9#2 to "op 27 #2"  
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Thanks for the listings. I think the British version of ARCT Dipoma is the Licentiate of the Royal Schools of Music Or LRSM/FRSM.


Regards

Antonio

#481563 - 09/04/07 06:05 PM Re: Difficulty: from Chopin Nocturne Op 9#2 to "op 27 #2"  
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I can play nocturne op 9 no 2 and it's one of my favourites... as an ABRSM candidate I would personaly put it at grade 6 (atleast)and as Bruce rightly said the op 27 is no easy ride.. I think you should take an easyer nocturne first, aslong as you are in no rush... and even if you are in some sort of "rush" you have to think about the end result, you may play it well enough... but they'l be a niggle at the back of you mind that will keep telling you "what if I learnt this with more experiance, better technique etc etc" I think another beautiful nocturne and possibly MY very favourite is the op. posth C# minor....

Cheers TE


"I Think Therefore I Am." - Rene Descartes
#481564 - 09/05/07 02:48 PM Re: Difficulty: from Chopin Nocturne Op 9#2 to "op 27 #2"  
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I agree that Op 27, #2 is much more difficult. I have played both, and although I can play Op 27 pretty well, it took quite awhile, with some breaks in between while my playing improved. I would pick an easier one first.

#481565 - 09/05/07 03:28 PM Re: Difficulty: from Chopin Nocturne Op 9#2 to "op 27 #2"  
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The Royal College of Music in London has three post-grade 8 ABRSM levels: the Associate, Licenciate and Fellow of the college, each requiring more of the musician. I would put Op 27 no. 2 at a difficult grade 8 ABRSM level or possibly the old 'advanced level' of the ABRSM which I think has now been scrapped. It is easier than any of the Chopin ballades.

#481566 - 09/05/07 03:50 PM Re: Difficulty: from Chopin Nocturne Op 9#2 to "op 27 #2"  
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Quote
Thanks for the listings. I think the British version of ARCT Dipoma is the Licentiate of the Royal Schools of Music Or LRSM/FRSM.
nope, you are mistaken. The ABRSM Dip,LRSM and FRSM all make up the ARCT Dip.


Mastering:Chopin Etudes op.10 nos.8&12 and op.25 no.1, Chopin Scherzo no.4 in E major op.54, Mozart Sonata in B flat major K.333& Khachaturian Toccata
#481567 - 09/05/07 04:26 PM Re: Difficulty: from Chopin Nocturne Op 9#2 to "op 27 #2"  
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Quote
Originally posted by Amelialw:
Quote
Thanks for the listings. I think the British version of ARCT Dipoma is the Licentiate of the Royal Schools of Music Or LRSM/FRSM.
nope, you are mistaken. The ABRSM Dip,LRSM and FRSM all make up the ARCT Dip.
Amelia :

I'm not sure what you are saying here. The ABRSM, LRSM and FRSM all all British diplomas and the ARCT is a Canadian diploma. How can the British diplomas "all make up" the ARCT diploma?

Regards,


BruceD
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#481568 - 09/07/07 04:49 AM Re: Difficulty: from Chopin Nocturne Op 9#2 to "op 27 #2"  
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sorry, I answered in the wrong way. The ARCT performer's exam is equivalent of the ABRSM Dip, LRSM and FRSM exam.


Mastering:Chopin Etudes op.10 nos.8&12 and op.25 no.1, Chopin Scherzo no.4 in E major op.54, Mozart Sonata in B flat major K.333& Khachaturian Toccata
#481569 - 09/07/07 09:13 AM Re: Difficulty: from Chopin Nocturne Op 9#2 to "op 27 #2"  
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Quote
Originally posted by Amelialw:
sorry, I answered in the wrong way. The is equivalent of the ABRSM Dip, LRSM and FRSM exam.
That doesn't make sense either. DipABRSM, LRSM and FRSM are different levels or standards of award; and they can each take different forms - teaching or performing etc. The "ARCT performer's exam" can't possibly be equivalent to all of that. Unless, of course you mean something like, "In Britain they have DipABRSM, LRSM and FRSM, while here in Canada we have the ARCT performers' exam." That might approximate to what you mean.


John


Vasa inania multum strepunt.
#481570 - 09/07/07 02:12 PM Re: Difficulty: from Chopin Nocturne Op 9#2 to "op 27 #2"  
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John :

Amelia also didn't clarify that the Royal Conservatory of Music's (Toronto) ARCT examination can be:
- Performer's ARCT
- Teacher's ARCT
and that the requirements are distinct for each examination and clearly pointed out in the Syllabus.

Regards,


BruceD
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#481571 - 09/07/07 02:53 PM Re: Difficulty: from Chopin Nocturne Op 9#2 to "op 27 #2"  
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Where do folks think Op. 48 No. 2 would fall? It's not in the list that BruceD posted. It's my favorite Nocturne.


Bob Runyan
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#481572 - 09/07/07 04:42 PM Re: Difficulty: from Chopin Nocturne Op 9#2 to "op 27 #2"  
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Quote
Originally posted by bobrunyan:
Where do folks think Op. 48 No. 2 would fall? It's not in the list that BruceD posted. It's my favorite Nocturne.
I would say that it's every bit as difficult as anything in the Grade 10 list, and more difficult than some.

Regards,


BruceD
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#481573 - 12/10/07 10:33 PM Re: Difficulty: from Chopin Nocturne Op 9#2 to "op 27 #2"  
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chopin's nocturne, 27/2, is, i think, a little piece of heaven


pieces currently working on:

Chopin waltz #3 a minor
Chopin waltz #7 c sharp minor
Beethoven sonata #8 "Pathetique"
Augustan Club waltz by Joplin
Harmony Club waltz by Joplin
Chopin nocturne #8 in d flat
Chopin nocturne #1 in b flat minor
#1911396 - 06/10/12 10:43 AM Re: Difficulty: from Chopin Nocturne Op 9#2 to "op 27 #2" [Re: DeAntonio]  
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What does the RCM grade the op62 no2 as?

#1911467 - 06/10/12 01:01 PM Re: Difficulty: from Chopin Nocturne Op 9#2 to "op 27 #2" [Re: JoelW]  
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Originally Posted by scherzojoe
What does the RCM grade the op62 no2 as?


You really dug this one out of the archives, didn't you?

RCM doesn't include Chopin's Op 62, No 2 on any of its examination lists.

Regards,


BruceD
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#1914242 - 06/15/12 06:08 PM Re: Difficulty: from Chopin Nocturne Op 9#2 to "op 27 #2" [Re: DeAntonio]  
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According to Bailie Op.9 No.2 is grade 7 and Op.27 No.2 is grade 8.



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Music is my best friend.


#1914261 - 06/15/12 06:44 PM Re: Difficulty: from Chopin Nocturne Op 9#2 to "op 27 #2" [Re: ChopinAddict]  
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Originally Posted by ChopinAddict
According to Bailie Op.9 No.2 is grade 7 and Op.27 No.2 is grade 8.
Yes, but most of Chopin's works are ranked in the top four or five highest numerical categories in that book, so a numerical difference of one is not insignificant.

Last edited by pianoloverus; 06/15/12 06:45 PM.
#1914280 - 06/15/12 08:29 PM Re: Difficulty: from Chopin Nocturne Op 9#2 to "op 27 #2" [Re: DeAntonio]  
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You can also check out the Henle difficulty ratings:
http://www.henle.de/us/detail/index.html?Title=Nocturnes_185


Currently working on: Bach Partita 4, English Suite 2, Toccata d-minor, Chopin-op 10/1, Schubert Impromptus
#1914647 - 06/16/12 05:28 PM Re: Difficulty: from Chopin Nocturne Op 9#2 to "op 27 #2" [Re: DeAntonio]  
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a little thought: op.27 could be considered as the highlight of the nocturnes by Chopin, indeed, anyone. As to difficulty: these pieces are not ment to be difficult, these are not etudes or bravoure-look-at-me pieces at all, these are characterpieces, to be played by someone who has, well, character, fingers and good taste, that supposes that one has fingers, a heart and a brain, any struggle for right notes should be superfluous, the right Stimmung is the key.


Longtemps, je me suis couché de bonne heure, but not anymore!
#1914702 - 06/16/12 09:08 PM Re: Difficulty: from Chopin Nocturne Op 9#2 to "op 27 #2" [Re: BruceD]  
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Originally Posted by BruceD


RCM doesn't include Chopin's Op 62, No 2 on any of its examination lists.



Their loss. smile


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#1914837 - 06/17/12 08:14 AM Re: Difficulty: from Chopin Nocturne Op 9#2 to "op 27 #2" [Re: DeAntonio]  
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My favorite performance of the Op.9 No.2 Nocturne. Do you like it?

For me, this performance is so great that by itself(although I have heard Achucarro play other works live)it justifies calling this pianist is a very great one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScVkvd9-N-g

Last edited by pianoloverus; 06/17/12 08:16 AM.
#1915577 - 06/19/12 04:13 AM Re: Difficulty: from Chopin Nocturne Op 9#2 to "op 27 #2" [Re: DeAntonio]  
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Op. 27 No. 2 is pretty easy except for that one little taunting virtuosic annoyance. Sounds quite nice though...

#1915590 - 06/19/12 05:19 AM Re: Difficulty: from Chopin Nocturne Op 9#2 to "op 27 #2" [Re: JoelW]  
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Originally Posted by scherzojoe
Op. 27 No. 2 is pretty easy except for that one little taunting virtuosic annoyance. Sounds quite nice though...



Then I would love to listen to your very polished performance of it.

#1915594 - 06/19/12 05:55 AM Re: Difficulty: from Chopin Nocturne Op 9#2 to "op 27 #2" [Re: GeorgeB]  
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Sure thing! - if I ever learn it..

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