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I've always been an avid Joplin/Ragtime fan, and I'm fascinated by not only his music, but his life. It's a known fact that Joplin was constantly trying to revolutionize Ragtime and wanted to be taken seriously as a Classical Composer. He demonstrates outstanding originality in 'Bethena - A Concert Waltz', and of course his Opera, 'Treemonisha'. It's also known that at one point he was going to "revolutionize the symphonic form" and was composing a Ragtime Symphony. It's also believed he was working on a Piano Concerto. Unfortunately, both of these works are now lost.
Do you feel Joplin and the Ragtime Era deserves more respect as a form, and as a part of Classical art? Joplin's works demonstrate absolute genius and that's why I feel he's often brushed off as just a Ragtime composer, when really, he was so much more than that.
What are your thoughts?
Currently working on... Chopin - Fantasie Impromptu in C sharp minor Op.66 Mozart - Piano Sonata in E flat K.282 Liszt - Romance in E minor "O pourquoi donc" S.196
Well, one thing I know is it takes a lot of skill to perform Scott Joplin well. I always say that if you can play ragtime and the classics you pretty much have the bases covered. I don't know his opera but I am a fan.
Joplin's works demonstrate absolute genius and that's why I feel he's often brushed off as just a Ragtime composer, when really, he was so much more than that.
any examples to listen to? Just askig because besides a few nice rags I don't know amything about his "other" music.
Joplin's works demonstrate absolute genius and that's why I feel he's often brushed off as just a Ragtime composer, when really, he was so much more than that.
any examples to listen to? Just askig because besides a few nice rags I don't know amything about his "other" music.
Currently working on... Chopin - Fantasie Impromptu in C sharp minor Op.66 Mozart - Piano Sonata in E flat K.282 Liszt - Romance in E minor "O pourquoi donc" S.196
I think Joplin is actually overrated. I think the music of Jelly Roll Morton, and stride pianists like Johnson and Fats Waller is far more interesting.
I think Joplin is actually overrated. I think the music of Jelly Roll Morton, and stride pianists like Johnson and Fats Waller is far more interesting.
It's incredible the differences in opinions regarding composers. Why do you feel he's overrated? His Rags are pure genius, much finer than any of the ones written during his time. And his non-syncopated works are heavily underrated, and underplayed for that matter, sadly.
I wish more of his works had survived. He was really onto something in regards to revolutionizing ragtime. A Ragtime Symphony would have been a groundbreaking point in the history of American Music.
Currently working on... Chopin - Fantasie Impromptu in C sharp minor Op.66 Mozart - Piano Sonata in E flat K.282 Liszt - Romance in E minor "O pourquoi donc" S.196
I think Joplin is actually overrated. I think the music of Jelly Roll Morton, and stride pianists like Johnson and Fats Waller is far more interesting.
It's incredible the differences in opinions regarding composers. Why do you feel he's overrated?
I find Joplin's compositions quite boring harmonically and rhythmically(they all use basically the same chord progression and rhythm patterns)and too simple in terms of their use of pianistic devices. Here are a few pieces by Morton, Waller, Johnson, and a modern rag by Bolcom that I find far more appealing:
I am a huge fan of Joplin's works... they are wonderful. Whilst I agree that the same chord progression is used in many of his rags, that can sometimes be a sigh of relief when learning a new one. His rags are quite intricate with the harmonies, and offer so much room for shaping. If nothing else, there can be a huge sense of accomplishment when you learn one of his pieces!
BTW, I performed 'Maple Leaf Rag' for the first time in public a couple of weeks ago... that is definitely a piece that will get you compliments after a performance!
I play 'Maple Leaf Rag' and 'The Entertainer'. What other rags are that good and popular that would be worthy to learn? because so far I cannot find any.
I've always been an avid Joplin/Ragtime fan, and I'm fascinated by not only his music, but his life. It's a known fact that Joplin was constantly trying to revolutionize Ragtime and wanted to be taken seriously as a Classical Composer. He demonstrates outstanding originality in 'Bethena - A Concert Waltz', and of course his Opera, 'Treemonisha'. It's also known that at one point he was going to "revolutionize the symphonic form" and was composing a Ragtime Symphony. It's also believed he was working on a Piano Concerto. Unfortunately, both of these works are now lost.
Do you feel Joplin and the Ragtime Era deserves more respect as a form, and as a part of Classical art? Joplin's works demonstrate absolute genius and that's why I feel he's often brushed off as just a Ragtime composer, when really, he was so much more than that.
What are your thoughts?
40 years ago, maybe. But since "The Sting" (goodness - was it really way back in 1973 :-) and the Joplin revival it sparked off, I'd say he's OVER-rated if anything. Is 'Bethena' THAT original? A string of pleasant but themes connected by rather contrived modulations. And whistle me something from 'Treemonisha'?
Many composers used elements of ragtime. It could be argued that Joplin got stuck in it.
I play 'Maple Leaf Rag' and 'The Entertainer'. What other rags are that good and popular that would be worthy to learn? because so far I cannot find any.
Probably the most popular rag from the era is the 12th Street Rag. Rialto Ripples has a fair amount of popularity due to the fame of Gershwin, but it is quite late for the ragtime era. St. Louis Tickle is another famous rag.
The rags of Charles Lamb, James Scott, and Tom Turpin are probably more typical of ragtime music than Scott Joplin's.
There are some pieces with "Rag" in the title which are not really rags. Alexander's Ragtime Band and Tiger Rag are examples.
I really like Scott Joplin's music. I find that everything that he composed is well crafted and is a pleasure to listen to. I don't really care too much about whether academics take his music seriously, his music speaks for itself and has withstood the test of time. As for whether you he is underrated that really depends on who is doing the rating - I rate Scott Joplin highly in terms of music I like to listen to. Sure there are plenty of composers whose compositions are more complex or sophisticated but for me that's not the point.
I play 'Maple Leaf Rag' and 'The Entertainer'. What other rags are that good and popular that would be worthy to learn? because so far I cannot find any.
One of his best is `The Cascades` although it`s really quite difficult in places.
`Peacherine Rag` is another good one and much easier.
"...His Rags are pure genius, much finer than any of the ones written during his time..."
I'm very partial to Joplin, and would be the last to decry his special gifts, though I'm not sure I would grant such a blanket imprimatur to every one of his works. However, let's not forget Joseph Lamb, or even Joplin's contemporaries from other countries, such as Ernesto Nazareth.
If you're not familiar with Lamb's work, you have a nice treat in store, as a Joplin fan. I think that there are many blazing talents who have been swept away so completely by time and circumstances of fortune that we will never have any way of finding out about them. Louis Chauvin comes to mind. Even Joplin's own surviving works are likely just a fraction of what he might have brought forth in a less adverse circumstance. And, as you said, sometimes the less talented have been thrust in our face--- that's still happening to this very day.
The story of his life is as affecting as his compositions. You may still be able to find King of Ragtime, Scott Joplin and His Era by Edward A. Berlin, published by Oxford University Press. I thought it was better-researched and better-written than some of the other biographies I've seen.
I don't know how to quote multiple people, so I'll just have to do it like this.
Exalted Wombat: In terms of Bethena, I have to disagree with what you said. The real genius of this work is Joplin's use of one tiny motif from the start, and turning it into "An enchantingly beautiful piece of music". Everything about the piece is genius in my opinion, the unusual modulations and he became a lot more daring with his harmonies in this piece. Also, if one is aware of the historical side of this piece (it was his first copyrighted piece since the sudden death of his new wife, Freddie), one is able to fully understand the piece. It's his most beautiful piece.
Jeff Clef: I am also a pretty avid Lamb fan, just not as much as Joplin/ In fact, Top Liner Rag is one of the most beautiful Rags ever written in my opinion. At times, Lamb's Rags are perhaps more sophisticated! I will agree with that, but there's just something about Joplin's which is still more special. Maybe it's Joplin's melodies? I don't know, but people may see Joplin as a lesser composer, but I don't think he is. His later works became more daring and less formulaic than his early works.
Of course, everybody's opinion is valid . I just saw this thread as a way of discussing Joplin as a composer, not the Ragtime novice he is too often seen as.
Currently working on... Chopin - Fantasie Impromptu in C sharp minor Op.66 Mozart - Piano Sonata in E flat K.282 Liszt - Romance in E minor "O pourquoi donc" S.196
Samuel1993 -- I don't know what the situation in the UK is, but here in the US, there are pianists and composers pretty much devoted to the "rag". There are numerous regional festivals, and a big annual event, held (I believe) in Joplin, MO. The two American Classical composers of note are William Bolcom and the late William Albright, both of whom wrote extensive ragtime works in the '60's through the '80's. John Musto is still writing in this genre, and a host of "lesser lights". So I don't believe the idiom is in any way disrespected.
I really don't relate to Joplin as being underrated, either. It was really HIS rags that entered the musical consciousness in the early '70's, in response to "The Sting" -- not Lamb's or Turpin's -- and IMO it's because Joplin's rags have more memorable "hooks" and beguiling modulations. "Bethena" and "Treemonisha" do indeed signal more ambition on his part, but unfortunately he simply died too early afterwards, and so the speculation remains IMO in the "what-might-have-been" realm.
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