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Never one to shy away from a fray (sic) , I'd say that to my ears, the typically bright, edgy, strident Yamaha tone fits your 'thin & artificial' sound better than Roland's more rounded tonal characteristics as on the V1 presets on the V-Piano. And no, I didn't train my ears to hear any particular piano sound - I just like what I like, and when I played the V-P for the first time, what struck me immediately was the 'feel' and how responsive it felt under my fingers. Then I realized that it has a huge dynamic and tonal range, unlike all other DPs - I couldn't reach its limit at ffff. And it just felt so 'real'. The sound itself was just average, not great (in its raw Vintage Piano 1 setting - I hadn't learnt how to customize it then), but certainly no worse than the Yamaha sound, even disregarding the artificiality of their DP sound following the initial attack (over-rapid decay followed by looping.....).

But once I got mine delivered, I realized I could improve its sound very easily just by turning a dial....(and the world was my oyster ).

As for the key action, it might not be real but it's close enough - I've played lots of acoustic pianos (including new ones) whose action isn't so responsive. But if you play lots and lots of acoustics like I (used to) do, you can easily adapt to almost any, and Roland's PHA-III is very positive: I've no trouble going from it to a Fazioli F278 or Yamaha CFX for example.

It is quite amazing that you are able to detect "just a hint of artificiality in exposed mid-range attack and release" while listening to a youtube clip with compressed audio through either computer speakers or headphones. Amazing! However I am glad that the criticism has now moved to "just a hint" when talking about the V-Piano's "lack of high quality mids". That is progress considering the sound of both the VP-Grand and standard VP are pretty much exactly the same



Well said I too am super critical of sound and grew up playing mostly Yamaha's, including having a Yamaha upright as a child and playing a Yamaha C1 for most of my life while at school and coming home a a CLP990 and playing gigs with my S700 triple strike S90 piano sound which I loved.

So when I first heard of the V-Piano technology, as a piano sound connoisseur, I went to play it with a skeptical mind and being a fervent Yamaha loyalist until then. I have to say at first the sound was noticeably different than the bright Yamaha's I was used to, however that is not a bad thing. I liked Roland's rounder and warmer tone in the default however once I started playing it, I could see why this digital piano was so special. I did not buy a V-Piano right away, as I had no need for it at the time and was hoping Yamaha would come out with something to challenge it. So I tried out the AG series and was not impressed as my CLP990 sounded exactly the same to me through headphones and my own CLP990 has wooden hammer action as well with real hammers so to me it felt just as good if not better since I was used to it.

What really got me to decide to pull the trigger on the V-piano was after I discovered Bennevis's thread about his custom user voices. I went to Sam Ashe and made the changes, and the instrument came alive. That is why I tell everyone to go to the store, take your own headphones, and input bennevis's settings. You will hear the difference.

What I hear is what I hear. I wasn't listening to youtube but to the streaming audio from the pianist's own website. But apart from that, I have never suggested more than a mild mid-range issue with the V. It was the reason I didn't pursue the idea of purchasing one after testing in a store, although I am fully aware that it can be tweaked. I am also aware that those who have purchased don't hear the V the same way that I do.

Having worked in sound and vision most of my adult life, I know that one becomes very attuned to the most subtle artefacts. I was always amazed when clients could not detect a single-frame error in a video, when to me it stood out like a sore thumb. It wasn't that my vision was any better, simply that I had trained myself to discern very subtle errors. Same goes for sound artefacts.

I don't suggest any DP is perfect - including the V. I have been on a long hunt for that elusive beast. None of the ones I own comes anywhere near perfect, although the FP-7F is perhaps the most playable of the bunch. I am very positive about the development of the V and other modeled pianos. My personal opinion is that we haven't reached equivalence with acoustics yet, but if those who possess a V think that is the case then I'm happy for them - it just doesn't quite do it for me yet, given the cost of entry. However, I'll say it again, I do think the VPG overall sounds extremely good in the hands of a capable pianist.

What I don't understand is why certain supporters of the V question other people's truthfulness when they state that they can hear some artificiality. I can also hear looping in sampled pianos - does that somehow upset owners of sampled pianos?

Gee, to my trained mind, it's the V-piano clan that is constantly shouting their diatribe about how great their V is. On the contrary, I think the AG people are only interested in enjoying their piano and don't have to turn people's opinions around.

Let's face it - the AG group is a much larger group of people. Why is that?

I wasn't questioning your truthfulness, I know each and every one of us hears things in different ways and I do believe you truly hear something wrong however small with the VP-Grands sound when played by Yana in concert. This is a piano forum filled with piano players of all different levels and ears. Sometimes the tone of ones post doesn't come out the way it was meant to.

However if you go to Yana Rezniks website, it is chock full of youtube clips which are not of very high quality sound since it is compressed, which I do notice the compression artifacts quite well which outweigh being able to discern the minutia that is what you would actually hear live or using my very own HD598's connected to my V-Piano. With that said, you would be hard pressed to be able to tell that what she is playing on the VP-Grand is anything other than from an acoustic grand, albeit recorded and down-sampled digitally for streaming on the web.

As for us supporters of the V-Piano, we are very very few, and perhaps we will always stay that way. It is fun to come on in the forums and talk to people about DP's in general and see what is coming up in the future. I have no brand loyalty and will support any brand of piano if they come out with something better. That is the real reason I keep coming back and staying in the loop. However I do have another reason for joining this forum which was specifically to utilize bennevis's thread and hopefully contribute to it in the future. It is too bad that Roland has not been able to market the V-Piano as well as it could have in my opinion, however they have marketed the V-Piano Grand pretty well since it is unprecedented to have it demoed in concert halls being played by true concert pianists. So again I apologize to you, and any other who my comments gear towards. I do defend the V-Piano's honor in this forum, sometimes to an audience of AG lovers, you know who you are..lol.. However what fun would this forum be if we all agreed on everything..



Nobody's Perfect

OT - I'd love to see inside of a V-piano and see why it's the size and weight. I'd hate to find out that they only made it that size so they could justify it's price. i.e. - you open it up and it's got dumbbells strapped to it's sides with a few circuit boards in the middles and the roland action that doesn't take that much space (compared to acoustic action.)

As you all know, I've owned both. Paid my own good money for both. What I hear in the V-Piano is there to me and a fair few others, all of whom on this forum owned a V-Piano and got rid of it (or still have it and are unhappy with it). The deficiency is nothing to do with speakers or headphones, let's put that nonsense to rest.

The V-Grand does sound better but then you have the amps, speakers, soundboard and cabinet from which the thin, synthetic sounding mids can get some colour and realism added. Then in most demos the V-Grand is recorded with microphones in an acoustic space which adds its own colouration. Of course it sounds better and more "real" like that. But plug in some headphones and the same deficiencies will be there.

What bennevis refers to as the "bright, edgy and strident" tone of Yamahas makes me wonder whether in fact he has ever played an AvantGrand - between nightly concerts, playing sessions on numerous 9' concert grands, mountaineering, various other extreme sports and whilst also practising a self-proclaimed avoidance of any technology with an almost religious zeal. Apparently thereby meaning he can't share any recordings of his beloved V-Piano with us. How convenient. Although of course he can contribute to this forum at any hour of the day or night it would seem. But remember he doesn't have his own computer or internet access. Yeah, right.

The main piano sound on the AG is quite a mellow one actually but is FAR FROM PERFECT. Loops? Yes. Too short a decay? Yes. Audible velocity switches? No actually. But as I say, FAR FROM PERFECT.

I don't have any issue saying that - my ego is quite unruffled. I'm not about to release my un-fed and rather bad-tempered Rottweiler on the opposition (enter Dazed and Confused for the V-Piano).

The V-Piano in some ways is a very good thing - as I ALWAYS SAY. The best player connection and sense of dynamics, without question. But it doesn't SOUND like a real piano because the mid-range is wrong. Not a million miles out but just not quite there yet. That is a limitation of modelling and of the base tone that underlines ALL of the V-Piano voices - the bit you can't change regardless of all the (frankly rather tiresome) tweaking possible with the V-Piano.

I would have all the respect in the world for someone that said of their V-Piano, "yes, I know the sound isn't quite there but I am willing to live with that because the trade-off of unsurpassed dynamics is worth it to me", rather than the constant blind worship we see here. I don't understand why every opportunity is taken to religiously promote the V-Piano whilst simultaneously rubbishing the AvantGrand - as if that has some relevance to the argument - which it doesn't.

Amen!

I guess I don't deserve then your level of respect because I really don't hear anything wrong with my V-Piano's sound at all. You cannot deny that the V-Piano sounds more like an acoustic than anything Yamaha has available. Now whether or not you like or dislike the acoustic sound it produces, then that is up to you. You actually must have liked the sound of the V-Piano at first since you actually bought one. Did you not hear the problem you describe at the store, or is it that subtle you only heard it much later? Personally I never rush into buying anything, especially any musical instrument. Once I placed bennevis's settings into the Demo model at the Sam Ashe, it came alive and was an exciting sound. Now I agree that I would take playing a true Grand anyday, however the nextbest thing that I can play at home is waiting for me everyday and I feel joy playing and listening to it. If I get tired of playing one voice, I switch it to another and if I feel like it create another. I'm afraid you didn't spend enough time making the changes necessary to create the perfect sound for you. In fact, I brought in a concert pianist of 40 years to my house. She really dislikes Clavinova's and refuses to play them ever. I asked her to give the V-Piano a try and she was pretty amazed. She went through each of bennevis's settings and could hear all the different Grands that were represented. She felt the Steinway and Bösendorfer were the best ones recreated. She told me for the time she was playing, she forgot she was playing a digital piano. She also liked the lighter touch of the keyboard and said she might actually buy one the day she moves to a smaller home.

Oh, I do emphatically deny that. The V-Piano sounds less piano-like than any number of Yamaha DPs.

I've been through the circumstances of my buying the V-Piano many times.

In brief, the shop was noisy, I was self-conscious about playing without headphones. My headphones were open-backed and leaked noise in from the techno boys fiddling around with their computers right behind me. I played it twice for perhaps an hour or so. I was happy with the feel and connection. The sound I neither liked nor disliked at the time from what I remember...

But hey, no matter. Because Roland promised (and I quote again for the hundredth time) "a virtual showroom of concert grands". They promised me I could make it sound like ANY piano in the world. When I couldn't they sent Roland UK's V-Piano product specialist to see me to create "my piano". I told him my objections and he said "we had to start with a sound. That sound is in everything the V-Piano does. It is the DNA of the V-Piano and if you don't like that sound there's nothing I can do for you".

There is no showroom of concert grands. The V-Piano always sounds like a V-Piano. It never sounds like a Yamaha or Fazioli or anything else. Just a V-Piano. And in the midrange a V-Piano sounds like a processed, artificial, synthetic, thin sounding electronic emulation of a piano. Don't get me wrong, it could be worse - it could sound like PianoTeq, which whilst tonally different shares many of the V-Piano's sonic properties. Funny that, seeing as they are the only fully modelled pianos available (pending Physis).

Modelling is just not a mature technology in terms of the sonics. It is not realistic enough yet. It will be, one day. But not yet. They have the behaviours nailed (as does PianoTeq), but the sound is some way off.

If the V-Piano (or any other model for that matter) was a perfect emulation of an acoustic instrument, there would be no need for any further development, we could all save our pennies for one, leave it to our grandchildren in our wills, and this forum could close down.

You are quite right Vox. But still, if they got it right I think I'd buy another and retire from the forum, content that I own the perfect DP (ok, they'd have to stick a decent action in it too). Now if that isn't reason enough for Roland to pull its finger out I don't know what is - they could silence me in one fell swoop.

There is one aspect to Yamaha DPs, they all have Yamaha acoustic piano samples.

For those of us who prefer Steinway sound, would Yamaha DP or V-Piano explicitly modeled after Steinway be a better choice ?

A Casio!

As has been said so many times, people should buy whichever they prefer - for both sound and action. There is no "correct" choice, and no choice will provide a perfect solution in all respects.

When it comes to music technology in the press, everything gets good to excellent reviews. And "good" means "adequate." (Not knocking the V or commenting on anything else you said, I just don't think there is any kind of "critic review" that is relevant.)

That gets back to the "Why DP talk is so heated sometimes?" thread. Every piano gets criticized here, but I think the only one that seems to get anyone's back up is when you criticize the V!

Personally, never having been in the market for something of that size/weight/price, I've never evaluated it carefully.

Actually, "what would be correct" question has not been asked.

The question asked was pretty specific, "what would be a better choice for those who prefer Steinway".

Well, I thought it was a rhetorical question, as the answer is obvious - providing you like the way the Steinway has been recreated - which is not a given.

But I wasn't joking about Casio - that is also a Steinway-type sound.

OK, then we are on the same page.

Alekkh, I really don't know what point you're trying to make. There are a number of DPs based on Steinway samples or models, some on Yamaha and others on Kawai (with the odd Bosendorfer, Fazioli Erard, Pleyel, and miscellaneous uprights thrown in for good measure). As far as I'm aware, none of these would be regarded as a perfect recreation by most people. Everyone chooses their DP according to action, sound, budget, weight, size, features and aesthetics. Even those who select an AG or V are compromising in certain areas. And because everyone is different and hears things differently - or has different priorities - they don't all like the same thing. I hear what I might term "inconsistencies" in every DP out there, even the V (I have not played an AG). Others believe the V represents a perfect emulation. Still more swear by the AG. None of that matters. Just because you and I might hear things differently does not make either one of us "right" or "wrong."

I have said on a number of occasions in posts here that I am not that fond of the Yamaha sound in either their acoustics or their digitals. I therefore tend to gravitate toward pianos with a darker, warmer sound. Back when I used to play acoustics, I preferred Steinway and mellower-voiced Kawais to Yamahas - and I just loved Bluthner, although I rarely got to even sit at one. That is why I have two Rolands - complete with all their compromises. But just because I prefer Roland to Yamaha, I don't feel the need to suggest that the Yamahas are inferior, or that those who buy them are somehow unable to hear correctly - or that my FP-7F is a perfect emulation; it isn't!

The V-Piano is a remarkable creation, and I hope that Roland see fit to develop it further. However, when I weigh its cost and bulk against its sound signature, it doesn't fit my needs sufficiently. If it had a sound that, to me, was so significantly better/more authentic/engaging than its less expensive sibling, it might tip the balance, but not as it stands. YMMV.