Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist

Kamin, a piano IS NOT DESIGNED FOR A PARTICULAR TEMPERAMENT. Period! Simple as that! Ten paragraphs not need, seriously!

It's a very nice temperament if you like personality between the keys!

So, shouting makes a point more valid, but referring to Wikipedia (as one of many possible sources) doesn't?

Shouting doesn't make a point more valid, and neither does Wikipedia, to answer your question!

"This article does not cite any references or sources. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (July 2009)"

Sounds like something I'd bank on for sure!

Loren you are admirable with your simple sentence your simple trusts and your few words sentences (may I add your simple everything...).

I wonder if you have the slightest idea on how a piano is designed, I should not.

You dont seem to have much curiosity for those questions anyway.

You know, Kamin, someone who knows what he's talking about knows how to get a point across in as few words possible. I would suspect that someone without a clue has to ramble on and on and on (and on!) in an attempt to impress others.

Whoever said that is one of those people who is eternally stuck on the concept of ET only. There are plenty of them out there. The principle reason they hold on to that position will never be admitted for what it really is: fear. Fear of the unknown. Fear of howling wolves and blood curdling dissonances. Fear of having to go back to re-tune a piano for free! Fear of having to learn something new. Fear of having to change the way they have always worked for so many years.

They will say almost anything to support their position and can claim any number of resources to back them up. You'll find plenty of that on here, including a recent angry and vitriolic topic that was self titled a "rant". The intent of that topic was to make the idea of using the Well Temperament that I designed 20 years ago (or any other non-equal temperament, for that matter) appear foolish and misguided.

Completely unfounded statistics such as "99.9% of pianos are tuned in ET" are pulled out of thin air. Perhaps one might say that was only hyperbole but then again, just about everything that is said while trying to denounce the use of non-equal temperaments turns out to be an emotionally charged attack without any foundation in fact or experience. Unfortunately for the people who engage in these denunciations, the tactics have a way of backfiring on them. Their efforts only end up creating more interest and curiosity about a subject they wish would just go away.

I have seen the same thing happen over and over for 15 years now, ever since I first got a computer and began to write on piano technology forums. My own study and use of non-equal temperaments began long before that, so I always knew what I was talking about, at least fundamentally. Of course, I have also learned much more along the way. I have learned much from other technicians who practice the non-equal temperaments and I have also learned to identify those who rant and rave against their use for whom they are are and why they do so.

The truth is that any piano, built today or since the modern piano came into existence well over 100 years ago, has its scale design based upon theoretical Equal Temperament. That is merely a basic framework from which to start and does not in any way mean that the piano must or should be tuned to those theoretical frequencies. If it is, it won't sound very good at all and every technician on here knows that.

It is also true that the manufacturer of any high end instrument such as the Shigeru Kawai, Steinway, Fazioli, Bechstein, Bösendorfer, etc., recommends and desires their instruments to be maintained only by highly experienced and qualified technicians. Having the same tuning applied time and again by the same technician using the same techniques does, in fact, lend itself to the instrument maintaining its stability.

That being said, in the kind of climate that prevails over most of North America, the pitch of any piano naturally changes over the course of every year. The actual difference between a properly executed ET and the EBVT III in which you have shown an interest is far smaller than the changes a technician must typically make when correcting a piano that has gone out of tune due to seasonal changes. This is especially true for new pianos which have a tendency to lose pitch for the first several years.

So, any of these warnings or admonitions against having your piano tuned in the EBVT III or any other mild Well Temperament, Mild Meantone or Modified Meantone, that it will somehow damage the piano or any music to be played upon it are completely without foundation. Those statements are made by people who have no experience in crafting non-equal temperaments for general use on the modern piano.

In making these statements, they are not looking out for your best interest; they are only trying to prevent the inevitable day when someone asks them to tune a piano that way. They don't want to do it, they think they would not like how it would sound to them (and don't even consider your interest and desire) and will do or say anything to keep you from exploring the many beauties that the piano has to offer solely for their own selfish reasons.

The choice of how you would like to have your piano tuned should be up to you, not your technician. Whether or not you understand all of the theory or techniques, be they in tuning, voicing, regulation, etc., is not what matters either. What matters is whether you are pleased and satisfied with the way your piano sounds and performs under the maintenance of the technician you choose.

If you are not satisfied with the way one technician services your piano and he/she is not responsive to you for any desired changes, then you certainly have the right to choose another and not be concerned about doing so. It happens all the time. In the community where I live, there are many fine technicians and we each have our own clientele and people who recommend us for one reason or another.

The choice you make should be your own decision. It would be better for a technician who only wants to tune ET to say that he/she simply does not practice or engage in the use of non-equal temperaments and leave it at that. A person in business will naturally want to offer the services which are most in demand.

For example, I do not service electronic keyboards, organs, player pianos, modern player systems nor do I do finish touch-up or repair, or many of the other services that a piano technician might offer is there were enough demand. I have enough business doing what I know how to do well. I refer other requests to other technicians.

It would be a far better idea for those technicians who do not choose to tune non-equal temperaments to do likewise rather than to try to suppress the idea with false and unfounded claims.

Anyone that is willing to the key word here is l e a r n something new can. Anyone that is open to learning something new can. That is the only reason that your RPT says what he says. He doesn't want to do it or can't. Ask some non RPTs what they know about it where u live. You'll get the same response. People learn what they want to learn. Just look at how stubborn a few non RPTs in here are towards it? Haha

Internet up here SUCKS! I didn't know anything about the EBVTIii either and didn't care until a few years ago when I started listening and learning more about it. I still couldn't learn it. Just one of those guys that is a slow slow learner so I had Bill B come to my house to teach it to me. Now I can use it if and when I need to do so or whenI want to do so. I think that is very important personally, to be able to do something like that if the customer asks for it. So long as it pertains to our profession. .

As Bill states too, there are many things that some people choose not to do too such as tuning pipe organs. Whie I can, because my family used to tune them, I choose not to do it because I don't want to do it. I don't like it.

Imam typing on an iPad 3 so mistakes galore.

Looks like you're learning lots of new things, Jer! Whoa, man! Slow down! You're making me tired just watching you!

Yeah! I'm supposed to be on vacation. The keyboard is dinky. Hah. I can use the voice microphone too but, for some reason, whenever I do that everyone looks at me like I'm talking to myself or something!?

I might add that those same people have no experience in designing modern pianos either!

Has anyone ever seen their names on the fallboard of an instrument which they have designed?

Since starting this "Non-Rant" thread, it has been filled with many rants. Nothing which has been said convinces me that ET is superior to UT. I find it just the opposite. I hear EBVT to be superior.

Hey Jer,

Think Vacation and go catch me some perch!

Ok! Vacation! Vacation! Vacation! Perch! Mmmmmmm.

Just returned from a trip to OKC yesterday where one of my favorite customers recently moved with her gorgeous Schimmel
Grand.

I introduced her to EBVT III several years ago when she lived in my city, and since she moved, she insists that I continue to tune for her. After tuning I told her that if she did not want to wait for me in scheduling to make the 100 mile trip that I could introduce her to two or three of the greatest tuners I know from our chapter that would take great care of her piano. She asked if they would tune her "special temperament", and I told her that they would only tune ET.

She told me that she will always gladly wait till I can schedule her.

Her piano teacher actually comes to her house for lessons, something she does only for her, and her teacher inquired if I would tune her piano like hers. A good friend tunes for her, and I will not invade on him, but the point is that EBVT makes pianos so much more clear that people playing it immediately notice, and have a great impression of the instrument.

Just sayin'

Charles Belknap

Last night I received and listened to...



While listening to the last two tracks of Mozart, Fantasia for piano in D minor,

track 12 [Prelleur, 1731]
track 13 [Eqaul]

I can easilly relate to the "cleanliness" you and your client are refering. I am beginning to dislike the "jittery" sound of ET. Now that I am cognisant of the differences, ET is unnerving to me.

Greetings,
Well, I did put a warning on the back that pure intervals can be habit forming! Some people thought I was just trying to be facetious, but no, a shift of perspective has occurred to many upon their introduction to the sound of a well-tempered piano.

It can leave your ET recordings sounding a little less attractive than they did before. (at least, I have been told that, also, several times..)
Anyway, I am glad you like it.

( I have been trying to get it placed for commercial download, selling it by the sonata, with the Mozart comparison given away for free. The services don't like to give anything away for free, so what does the crowd think? Would it be worth 25 cents to hear a Mozart composition in three different tunings, on the exact same piano, same mics, etc?

I am pretty naive about marketing, so would welcome anybody's previous experience. I have sold almost all of the original pressings, and so far, only lost about 2 dollars apiece on them, ( It's a good thing I didn't sell more!!!).
Regards,

at minimum 96kHz/24bit? By all means!

Welcome Trtibbs , it is good to see new people on the forum