Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix

I do not need additional revenue. I live and work in a country where the income does not depends the quality of the execution of the order, unfortunately. Ingratitude to the participants in the forum from me? It's you wrong formulated. I accept useful information and use in my work. However, the CA glue, and its use is not for me.
"Сократ мне брат, но истина дороже"

You don't need additional revenue? To buy a product that will allow you to be more efficient and professional. You make more money and your customer is satisfied? Less time and labour for a procedure that is better? Geez. Hello? Wake up!

I'm sorry, but you get on my nerves,. I thought at first that you were willing to learn more, now you seem like the guy whose methods are invariably the best.

All the best to you.

http://www.forumklassika.ru/showthread.php?t=86529&page=21
On the Russian forum "Classic" piano technicians I found video Maxim-technician from Argentina. He also uses cardboard. He wrote that uses the "German cardboard" of 0.5 mm. This is cardboard very difficult to find and buy in Argentina now. I'm having doubts about good condition a cardboard after hammering . Because he uses a hammer. Which would not be tight and stiff cardboard, it will be whole destroyed at the time of hammering than increasing the friction between the pins and wood.
cardboard+pin+ a hammer =bad?

That fact that individual competence is not as well recognized I have seen, but it is changing, so if you stick with older ways of thinking there will be youger people who will act differntly.

I noticed that in Poland in fact, where in the shops the shop owners often make no effort to smile or be polite with their customer (no say "thankyou" for example) .
The same in the street if you ask your road, the people will give to you gently but never expect you to thank them.

I asked why and it was explained top me those where habits from the communist era, wher you did gain the same if you where working well or not, what counted is that the "act" was done.

That makes for a little rude society, but see, in Poland the things have moved a lot and they knew how to sell their knowledge soon -woodworking for instance and others I dont really know, they also have food which have grown on fields which where not weakened by abuse of chemicals, so they can sell now natural products and meat - (coming with a plane you can see immediately the frontier between Germany and Poland, Poland is full of little parcels of many colours while in Germany the fields are giants with the same color everywhere...

There are hidden advantages, it may be difficult to look for them, but being recognized as competent and knowing methods to work faster or to have longer lasting results is usually rewarding, whatever the social situation is.

Turning the pin is very long as heat develops immediately, also, as said Ed Foote, hammering the pin may be less damaging, indeed with cardboard you may be obliged to leave the carboard at the external of the hole, as it is done with wood shims.

About the wood, the oily woods have to be avoided (as some exotic species) Too thick/hard wood make sit difficult to turn the pin.

I will try the CA thing but I understand it as a method to provide a "playeable" instrument in countries that are suffering from recession, with people unable to pay for a few days repair or to buy a new instrument, as it is the case in most countries today .

I would accept the idea if I where not used to change the strings set on old and less old pianos, I am really wondering what can be done with new pins on a CA treated block..

In repairs of old pianos, the relation between the cost of the repairs and the commercial value of the instrument is rarely at the advantage of the instrument, but the pleasure to play a piano that have a nice acoustical part is real (even if that part is a little tired).

“In repairs of old pianos, the relation between the cost of the repairs and the commercial value of the instrument is rarely at the advantage of the instrument, but the pleasure to play a piano that have a nice acoustical part is real (even if that part is a little tired).”

Not regular poster, usually just read. But totally drawn to this thread. Read every word. Came here today for info on several major problems with my long searched for 1918 Chickering Ampico 5’8” grand due to damage caused by an unscrupulous tuner/tech.

THANK YOU! To Kamin for above comment, Loren D. for posting this in first place, looking forward to trial test results Roy Rogers and best wishes for speedy recovery, and accordeur for finally telling Maximillyan what I would’ve pages ago. No offense Max, but you should be a bit more open to wise suggestions of others. That’s why I’m here! Over years given excellent advice and thanked those who graciously/genuinely helped me.

Yes Kamin, 3 yrs ago when first got my Chickering it WAS original and sounded wonderfully somber. My teacher remarked it sounded Russian, loved it. Ampico player was restored 20(?) yrs ago and needed again but piano WAS in excellent condition for age. Bass strings a bit tubby but everyone playing could not pull themselves away.

Shortened but still such long story! (to understand). Not over yet but some happy parts:

After asking 3 player friends, made eruptible mistake of befriending self-proclaimed expert tuner/tech with diminished mental ability and allowed him to work on past 2 1/2 yrs. I scheduled tunings with fellow piano classmates of lesser means, closed my dollhouse shop of 16 yrs several times, sat next to him assisting in repairs, fed him, did his laundry, groomed his dog, cut his hair, bought him things on eBay, gave him gifts, and always paid full price for work to my piano. Also got him into jointly-owned 3 local Music Academies where I take lessons.

Repaid me by quoting prices then half-again or doubling them on my friends, owing me money, killing one of my dogs (almost the other) and my Chickering!

Started last June, I refused despite his repeated begging, crying, screaming to close up a 4th day to drive him 4hr trip each way to buy Steck Duo-Art upright in Toledo. Went himself but later took out his extreme anger on my action so bad took me until Sept to finally get enough nerve to regulate myself, but still isn’t right.

Like a fool let him return in Oct, he broke F1, left it missing until Jan when he replaced it with new string, larger pin, hammered it down to less an 1/8“ from harp surface, and also the other 8 below it, with a regular nail hammer and without removing action to support pin block. Caught him too late as he was finishing. Said he could have used CA as I suggested and have as Quick Grip that I use on dollhouse furniture repair, but he replied, “I don’t like it”. Still not able to bring myself to pull action to check if pin block is splintered.

Know now he’s extremely clever scam artist, total liar, and all this was done to sabotage/force me into sending it to TN for him to “restore” but most likely add to his own collection, never to see it again. Fortunately, I didn’t have the funds and told him several times but it didn’t stop him.

Despite my many “NO, I don’t have time!” he appeared at our door March 15 & 17. Found out later he knowingly brought his ill dog with Canine Influenza that not only killed my dear sweet 11 yr old Yorkie Maggie March 30 but also left my16 yr old Yorkie Abby with severe dementia.

Now he’s blaming ME for his questionable liver damage due to not monitoring his Type-1 Diabetes and threatening to kill me. Confirmed by a few he is dangerous enough and threat is real. My husband travels often on business.

Good thing just happened to leave his IN friend’s phone number who said wished known my last name yrs ago to call me to warn. Others had but I thought just about not paying for eBay items.

Silver lining! New IN friend is going to help me finally fulfill my childhood dream to become a tuner/tech. Also going to examine my piano, my friends’ and the Academies’ to see what damage. Will let you know when I do. I want to repay them for unleashing this monster by tuning/repairing for them. Just ordered a used Sanderson Accu-Tuner IV from Baldassin Pianoworks (could not be nicer!) and plan to study for PTG.

So any suggestions/advice will be whole-heartedly appreciated to help me heal and move on. THANK YOU TO ALL IN ADVANCE!

1 Strongly disagree with you Kamin, about that in high-speed hammering mode, we are more humanely act with respect to the vertical, and pinblock . A piano pin can be conditionally as a screw, but not a nail. Throughout the world screws is screwing. In order to avoid excessive temperature, no screw up, need make slowly it several times.
2 Re setting the pin with shim if we shall score a pin it necessarily lead to the destruction of a wood in the holes adjacent pinblock. This I say to you, as a practitioner. If we work with a hammer restore a pin, and a few strokes as a result of losing nearby pins . There is a Russian proverb: "We One to cure, another We to cripple" (Одно лечим, другое калечим)

Thank you dear lady from a distant US Ohio,molehill. Write to all and we will happy to honor. I am very bad speaks English and understand your American essay quite bad , but I'm glad that our art forum you help . I always listen to their (technicians) advice and comments. And never at anyone offended. Such is my nature. accordeur my brother and I listen to it as well, but what we sometimes do not agree. I think that the dreams come true, even quite fantastic. I hope you learn to tune your piano. I'm already 20 years old, but to no avail. "Hope dies last." (Надежда умирает последней)

While using cardboard, veneer, sandpaper or any other type of substance may enable a loose wrestpin to grip with enough firmness to hold, it can only ever be thought of as a quick cheap fix! It appears that Max is heck bent on using this forum to promote his own personal methods, and not to learn and take advice from the vast pool professionals who try to coach him.

He disagrees with hammering in wrestpins, saying that it causes damage ...... it doesn't cause damage .... it may be the last straw for surrounding wrestpins that are at the point of giving up the ghost. In which case they too need seeing to !

The removal of wrestpins generates heat .... turning them out slowly by hand can often leave them so hot that they can't be handled .... However, if removed quickly, using a power drill, they are nowhere near as hot, and because the process is so rapid, the plank suffers less heat damage.

If using cardboard is his only method (because of availability of materials and costs), then slowly screwing in the wrestpin ... which is now very much tighter, will generate a great deal of heat that can only be a bad thing for an already "soft" plank. Hammering in pins is by far the best practice of stringing .... it's quick ... and more to the point ... it causes MUCH LESS heat and potential damage to the plank.

True, but when you get down to it, if the block is bad, the block is bad. Anything short of a new block is a band-aid that will buy time, not a permanent fix.

I think there is merit to the argument that an already stressed, dry, cracking block can be made worse by hammering. At the very least, it's going to jar other pins out of tune also, if those pins are going.

Yes, turning pins in instead of driving them tends to oval/enlarge the hole, but we're talking a block that already needs replaced.

If the customer is ready for a rebuild, that's the way to go. But if we're looking at something to give it a bit more time until the rebuild, I still say a shim is a shim is a shim.

Loren :

Too many times have I heard "the pin block is bad and need replacing" ... Yes agreed if the plank is cracked or split ... but in my experience I find that if a plank is that bad, then it's either do the job of replacing or do nothing. A split plank just gets bigger splits the more you try to shim.

In the event that time and dryness has merely shrunk the plank, It is not necessary to replace it. I have done o/s wrestpin replacements (both using the old strings and renewing) for decades, and not one single job has ever failed yet.

These examples of Max with cardboard don't indicate a collapsed, or split plank .... they seem perfectly capable of being servicable without being renewed.

I may be totally out in right field with this, but it seems to me that if you use the cardboard as Max suggest, then perhaps a little heat would be a good thing.

Wouldn't the heat generated help any glue in the cardboard soften and then as it cools help tighten the pin? I guess that would depend on the glue that was used in the cardboard.

May not work as well as the ca glue or new pins, but in this case would a little heat really be a bad thing?

Just like a tight screw or let off adjuster .... if you heat it, it will expand in the hole, and when allowed to cool down, will be able to be removed.

So...if a customer can't afford the rebuild and the kid is taking lessons, and they just need to save up for another year, you just say sorry and leave?

I'm putting the band-aid on, and letting them know (usually in writing) that the piano needs major work and that, on mutual agreement, a stop gap measure was taken that's not permanent.

I've followed tech who take the approach of "all or nothing." I benefit by getting "some," the owner benefits by getting time, and I've been the tech from that point on. And yes, many now have new or better pianos. Now, that band-aid is not always possible. Yes, I've condemned pianos and just told the customer that it's no use. In that case it would be irresponsible to charge the customer for a losing battle.

But I've gotten years out of pianos that were pronounced "dead."



Well, I guess that's one benefit of corrugated cardboard. It won't make a crack bigger like a wooden or metal shim (or a larger pin) will.

My points were not that of "using a sticking plaster" ... they were :

1. Too many assume that a plank needs replacing when in fact a much smaller repair of fitting o/s wrestpins would suffice.

2. The more heat induced into a wrestpin is likely to make the situation worse.

I too subscribe to doing my level best where it come to helping those who have little funds, but need an instrument that is serviceable.

If some of you prefer to advocate the use of cardboard, so be it Max may be in a situation where he has no choice, however, I am becoming more and more confused by the views of others not in his situation that consider his methods not only acceptable but openly to be encouraged.

Oh. and cardboard is just as likely to open up splits .... in a plank that is split

Most times when you have to heat a fastener to move it or remove it it is due to corrosion. The heat helps loosen the corrosion in the threads because it does expand the metal. But this expansion on such small parts would be hard to measure I would think.

I would also think you would have to heat a tuning pin pretty significantly to have any measurable expansion issues with it. Likely more heat than would be generated by hand turning the pin into the block.

But since I am not a scientist I may be all wet with my thoughts.

My experience with stuck fasteners comes from having done automotive repair work. But with this type work many times you have to use a torch to heat the fastener enough to move it.

I'm not saying the card board fix is the best, or even that it may last very long, but that it may be usable in certain situations. Especially in places that may not have the advantages we have for parts and glues.

And perhaps the little heat generated turning the pin in might be an advantage IF it has any effect on the glue used in making the card board. And I'm not sure it would.

There is much I am still learning so I may just be flapping my fingers in the wind. I've been wrong before, and will be again. That's why I enjoy coming here. I get to learn.

Hi Johnkie,

The fact is that on historical instruments the original pins have to be kept usually (I mean really old ones).

If the trick with cardboard works because of some resin or something which is added to the cardboard, this could be a possibility to experiment, for instance some kind of resin could be used as it is done to repair woods .

The main drawback is that screwing a pin is really very long, and also, due to the material turning into dust immediately, why not simply use a mix of some wood sealer with some resin in the hole.

ON a split block, plugs can avoid the new pinblock job, I also suppose (did not do it) that epoxy could repair the structure.

Now lets consider an old piano of some quality (good brand, some musical interest) , no money to pay for a box of pins a few meters of wire, new bass strings and the job of dismounting, mounting the new strings (plus all the extra that come with that job usually) .

If the instrument have some interest I would not want to use a process that oblige to change the block later.

I recognized that I had some friction (in a blok of pine wood) with that cardboard insert. That does not mean it will stay put in time, but at last it explained to me way Maxims was so entitled in his process. Then as I tend to be honest on those matters I acknowledged that. But whenever I have a little more time I will do real tests with torque/meter, and manipulations.
The cardboard once turned to dust may do like the wood shims and begin to be inefficient after some time.

Your Loren D, words in the full sense is gold. It's elementary physics. Corrugated cardboard is harmless as shim made is soft material. When we screw pin back in pinblock occurs touch two bodies. What of them in this battle will win . Corrugated cardboard shim? Shim to decay on particles under pressure pin and will give new life to pinblock. That is, if we do not achieve 100% of the effect hardness of pin, we as doctors says: "do no harm" and certainly it's could not enlarge woody hole of pinblock and the bush.

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=7172

They ship to Kazakhstan.

There are problems with shipping to this region. I shipped a box full of books that made it all the way to Max labelled as books.

Pianolive sent tools that made it all the way.

I sent 3 DVD’s and they disappeared…..he never got them.

Not quite true Roy, that slowly, and not with an electric drill in his hands. Because this is not a technical process. For me, such a procedure is a "small art", if you like shamanism, and the dive into the realm of the dead pianos. Yes, the method is not classic. It's unacceptable slow and tedious. It's does not give tuner "fast money for his repairs," as one a pin sometimes takes half an hour. However, it is only correct in the performance in terms of physics. All technicians are well aware why I have to say about the hammer. I repeat myself when we beating must suffer the neighboring pins. They are no longer fixed. This truth which no one here is why I know does not say a word ! Or is it no one knew? Therefore, only cardboard and not because he is not worth nothing. Only it's won the right "to treat vertical!" Just screwed pin!