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I see, now (perhaps) I get it better. But then I get lost:

..."So it will be tuning D from A, (3rolls sharp)...

I understand D4 from A3;

..."G from D, (2 rolls sharp)...

G3-D4

..."C from G, (3 rolls sharp)...

C4 from G3

..."F from C, (2 rolls sharp) then octave F, (above),...

You mean F3 from C4? Then F4?

..."Bb from both F's, (F3 2 rolls flat, f4 3 rolls sharp)...

Here (perhaps) I get lost. Is it Bb3? And the 4ths F3-Bb3 rolls less than the 5th Bb3-F4?

The temperament is between F3 and F4. All 5th's I do are 3 to the sharp, and all 4th's are 2 to the sharp. If I do A to E it will be 2 to the flat. Instead I tune the E from the B because it will be from the top and be 3 rolls sharp. If I get it right the A from E will be 2 rolls flat. I always tune from the sharp. It is easier to come form the top to set the pin than from the bottom.

Thank you Rich.

Regards, a.c.

About your latest fifths: there is one fifth that is very noticeably beating, C#-G#. Compare that with C-G and let me know if you can hear a big difference.

Perhaps it is time to consider one important fact: when a fifth is very very close to just, you must make sure (be sure) that it is on the correct side, namely narrow. In fact, our ear would accept almost-just fifths that are almost-just/wide, but - for example, in general - we want D4-A4 almost-just/narrow.

Let's consider the base intervals, make sure that A3-A4 is just-wide… how do you know (for sure) that A3-E4 is narrow? You have two ways: gently force your hammer (E4) ccw (counterclockwise) and see if the beat gets faster, then it was narrow. Alternatively, make sure that E4-A4 is wide.

When ever, perhaps you want to exercise your musical ear: fix one note (only centre string), go up to its fifth, tune left string (beating) narrow, right string wide, play slowly, mute in turn right-centre strings // left-centre string and try to relate the narrow and wide beating with abstract "tension" and "mood".

A narrow fifth is flabby and sad, loose and mournful. When ever please, you tell me how you "feel" a wide fifth.

Back to your latest fifths and 3rds. Ok means almost Ok.

1 - A3-E4: Ok, perhaps wide?? In fact C4-E4 is very tense, too wide;
2 - A#3-F4: Ok, in fact C#-F is Ok… BUT…
3 - B3-F#4: Ok, in fact D-F# is Ok;
4 - C4-G4: Ok, in fact D#-G is Ok;
5 - C#4-G#4: far too narrow, in fact E-G# is too sweet;
6 - D4-A4: it moves too much, I would have checked A4, perhaps it went a bit down.

Consider 5, you want C#4 down (in pitch), consequently F also down.
You tuned C#-F# too just and D#-G# too wide. This makes B3-D#4 just (pure).

Beat-wise, try to place C#-F# in between A3-D4 and E4-A4. In general, tune and compare every new interval, go correcting the most evident over-beating. Can you spot/confirm point 5?

Buona Domenica, a.c.

hello Rich I imagine the tuning as much appreciated for popular music, I suppose. I really wish I could hear a sample . If you think about it you are also respecting some model( I am unsure the word equation apply there)
I still dont understand your test with notes in the 7 octave. Or do you mean 7th?
best regards.

that is fun how we can get used to an interval quality. for instance enlarging tend to favor the projection of tone, I have seen a tuning done with small octaves that was pleasing singers but could not be used in concert without miking.

Thank you. Noticed the C#-G# beating.

Point 5, not sure if I understand.
If C#4 too low in pitch, that's C#4-F#4 too wide.
C#4-G#4 too narrow, then D#4 will be too low, then A#3 and F4 also too low. Is his the meaning of point 5?

Practice again tomorrow.
Will tune C4-G4 center string to pure fifth, then G4 left string lower a beat, right string raise a beat to listen the different of wider/narrower tone.

Thank you.

Thank you, Weiyan.

You noticed C#-G# beating, very good. It is beating because it is a very narrow 5th.

You can look at that in two ways:

- G# is too low from just (in pitch); in this case you raise G# closer to almost-just 5th;
- C# is too high from just (in pitch); in this case you lower C# (closer to almost-just 5th);

I noticed the 4th C#-F# non-beating (it is too just): in this case if you lower C# you can adjust (at least) two intervals: C#-G# gets (correct) wide and C#-F# gets less narrow (less beating - closer to just).

Please notice the chain of effect (events?): look at point 2 (A#3-F4), C#-F (as a M3) is Ok; if you lower C# you have to (must) lower also F.

In general, that is what you need to develop in time, the ability to visualize the chain of effects for every move.

In general, evaluate the effect of each move and try to improve (at least) two intervals with one move.

Always ask yourself: what happens (to the other intervals) if I modify this interval? You can do also this exercise (*) in abstract, even reasoning with yourself, without moving anything.

Regards, a.c.

(*) Edit: so doing, you will be able to draw the "intervals relation map".

Thank you, Afredo.

I always doing mental exercise.

Had tuned for hours, still cannot reconcile C-G/D-G. G4 is last note to tune, the problem is inherited from C#4.

I don't expect any result in first few tunings, just for building up the sense of geometry.

Good comment, Weiyan.

In a while, when you are ready, I'll tell you more about the sequence. Make sure that intervals are on the correct side and... Do not forget to take a brake, things go deep down...in time.

Godd morning.

To get last minute advice before today's tuning session.

Thank you for reminding taking brake. Try to slice to 30 minutes sessions.

Analysis of sides of fifth:

A3-E4,
Tune center of E4 to pure fifth. Higher partials seems beating. There is beating at attack. The fifth may not pure.
Tune left to beat at lower side,
Tune right to beat at higher side.

Its hard to distinguish the side of fifth.


http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/sides-of-fifth-11-june-2012

Today, 11-June's morning session.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/sides-of-fifth-11-june-2012
A3-D4, D4-A4 too fast

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-11-june-2012
C4-E4 slower than B3-C#4

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-11-june-2012
A3-D4 too fast

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-11-june-2012
B3-F#4 too fast
C#4-G#4 too fast, D4-A4 faster than previous interval.

Correction:
Lower D4, A3-D4, D4-E4 will beat slower.

Thank you.

Corrections:

Lower D4, and fine tune the fourth progression.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-oct-c-11-june-2012
D4-A4 seems beat too fast. The A3-A4 may too narrow. Should raise A4 little.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-c-11-june-2012
D4-F#4 slower than previous interval

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-c-11-june-2012

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-c-11-june-2012
A3-E4, B3-F#4, C#4-G#4 too fast

Thank you.

Hi Weiyan,

I have heard your rec. (previous post).

I am really happy for what you are able to hear. Also your written move (previous post) was correct.

I will be more precise later on. Well done.

Hi Afredo,

Thank you.

Sorry for making you too busy.

Alfredo is faster to help you with structure, I appreciate it it give me a rest Thank you Alfredo.

It is easy to be confused between too large 5ths(beating slow) and too small (correctly beating).

I usually recognize that immediately on a piano because of the behavior of the activity, too straight and at the same time unbalanced, but on the recordings I can get confused easily, I find.

Weyian you are progressing at the speed of light (of sound I may say . Let me suggest to you both that when recording the 5ths or the 4ths you sequence them in the same order than the temperament. That would make it easier for all of us to find the relations.
What do you think Alfredo ? chromatic sequence may be used later.

Also, the M6th are very useful . May be you could record 6 notes in sequence from the beginning of the temperament, then 7 , etc.

I understand well you are working on 4ths, 5ths and octaves (the octaves begin to be quite good and you are hearing and thinking "structurally" which is what is necessary.

Once the basic reasoning is obtained, you can tune directly the sequence, as mistakes are more easily corrected when more notes/intervals arrive , for instance the A3 F# sixth give yet a first idea of whenever the precedent intervals are good or not.

Congratulations on your tuning lever precision BTW That is amazing to follow your advancement.

Yes, Isaac, once again you have read into my thoughts! You see, perhaps we both are from a different planet ;-) but yours is still... faster!

I did think of asking Weiyan for the sequence exact order recording, then I read "G4 is the last note" he tunes... that is why I wrote ..."In a while, when you are ready, I'll tell you more about the sequence."

How nice to see that you too are "there".

About 6ths, it is precisely as you say, A3-F#4 gives the first FBI measure and relates this FBI with the previous SBI's; we evaluate that 6th out of its tension, taste, flavor, I'd say intonation... I'm sure we'll get there too.

I open all Weiyan's recs (M3's, 5ths and 4ths) and play the intervals jumping from one window to another one, so I can follow many relations at once, like if I was to play.

I'll be back soon,

A l f r e d o

Isaac sent me the tuning procedure.

A4->A3
A3->D4
A3->E4
E4->B3
B3->F#4
F#4->C#4
C#4->G#4
G#4->D#4
D#4->A#3
A#3->F4
F4->C4
C4->G4

It usually leave the gap in C4-G4/D4-G4

In the procedure sheet, after tuning F#4, check with sixth. I think its A3-F#4. Should you tell me how to use this checking?

Thank you.

Weiyan, please do not feel sorry, I am very happy when I can be of help, and your desires and efforts may help others too. So… we may all be happy.

Thirds:

A3-C#4: about 5 bps - too sweet, should beat faster, more tense;
A#3-D4: nice/a bit too fast - you can hear it is sensibly faster than previous;
B3-D#4: nice - very similar (slower) to previous - that difference is advanced stuff;

C4-E4: almost Ok - slower than previous;
C#4-F4: almost Ok - you hear it is sensibly faster than previous;
D4-F#4: too slow - compare with A3-C#, you hear it is similar - you want it similar to previous;
D#4-G4: not too bad;

E4-G#4: leave these out.
F4-A4: ==

Let's consider 5ths (it is a very important "harmonic" interval and you said A3-E4 is difficult, let's work on difficulties first):

1 - A3-E4: you can hear some movement… but… C4-E4 is quite nice, very little slow;
2 - A#3-F4: nice - but C#-F4 is a bit tense (too wide) - compare C-E and C#-F4, C-E about 8 bps, C#-F4 is beating as a flow, not countable;
3 - B3-F#4: too much movement, check D4-F#4, slower (sweeter) than C#-F4…
4 - C4-G4: nice - check D#4-G4, nice:
5 - C#4-G#4: too much movement, check E-G#, nice
6 - D4-A4: it moves too much.

- . - . - . -

After your corrections.

Your analysis was correct! You have improved C4-E4 and D4-G#4; at this stage, refine the M3's similarities: A3-C#4 is too slow; C#4-F4 (too fast)//D4-F#4 (slow) these are too different.

Perhaps A3 can go down (in pitch), so A3-E4 gets closer to narrow-just and A3-C#4 gets faster;
Perhaps D4 down, so A3-C#4 and A3#-D4 get more similar and D4-F#4 gets wider (faster);
Perhaps A#3 up, so A#3-F4 gets narrow and A#3-D4 more similar to neighbors;
Perhaps C4 down, so improving C-E and C-G.

As Isaac said, you have done a great job. Now, also move on above A4… use octaves (almost-just // on the wide side) and 5ths (almost-just \\ on the narrow side). From F4-C5 up… go for octaves (almost-just // on the wide side) and aurally beat-less 5ths.

I see you have posted, I'll reply later.

Regards, a.c.

Thank you.

Excitintg! Two weeks before, I even don't know how to hear beat. I couldn't believe I could move a pure fifth narrow little to beat 0.5bps. Issac can give witness.

Try climb up to A6 to day.