Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix

I use wrest plank plugs when there is a cracked pinblock. It is fairly good method. I do not belive that max idea is good enough...Metal bushing can also help, cardboard, do not think it is the good way...

It's a good, productive discussion, I think!

Of course it would be immodest on my part, but I must in topic publicate this . I'm repeat not trying to be a prophet, imposes its own ideas. I do it just to draw attention to the general problem of poor fixation pins off. It is a pity that most people wrote Russian about this problem , but there are in English too

kamil-koma
23 января, 2011 года, 14:17
Категорически не согласен в обвинениях в непрофессионализме. Главное чтобы колок держал, а он реально держит. Я отстроил свое старенькое пианино на котором обучались трое моих детей.
Только проложил один слой гофрокартона в виде трубочки, а затем ввинчивал колок, предварительно продув отверстие сжатым воздухом.
Кстати места трений струны смазал графитовой смазкой. Так делается при отстройке "машинок" на стратокастерах.
Еще раз большое спасибо за абсолютно не затратный способ быстрого восстановления инструмента.
Thank you! :-)
RonPaulSongs 1 год назад
По поводу "портянок" из наждачки, жести и некоего непонятного материала, пропитанного эпоксидкой (который иногда вываливается из-под вынимаемого вирбеля), могу сказать, что это вандализм и невежество, основанное на незнании матчасти.
NatalyShNA1 1 месяц назад
Установка полоски из наждачной бумаги под колок это действительно неправильный метод. Если учесть, тот факт, что колок потом ещё и забивается. Увы, полоска н/б своими абразивными зёрнами "убивает" и без того уже сработанное посадочное место под колком. Иногда, некоторые мастера ратуют за использование всевозможных эпоксидных смол. Я против этой методики, потому, что приходилось обслуживать такие пианино, колки не фиксировали нужного тона.
TheMaximillyan в ответ на NatalyShNA1 1 месяц назад
Неоднократно пользовалась методикой, предложенной Максимом. Это действительно работает. Максиму респект и спасибо за четкие пошаговые инструкции! В качестве материала уплотнителя также сначала использовала гофрокартон, затем нашла более убедительный материал - картон, из которого обычно изготавливают коробки для чая в пакетиках
NatalyShNA1 1 месяц назад
Благодарю за ценный совет, Максим! Обязательно воспользуюсь. По поводу радикального забивания колков всё-таки имею возражение. В таком капризном элементе, как вирбельбанк, любой удар молотком деструктивно сказывается на соседних посадочных гнездах (особенно в "усталых" инструментах) и, как следствие, увеличивает время настройки. Молоток уместен, но в гомеопатических дозах. Остальное - вкручиванием. Приятных вам инструментов!
NatalyShNA1 в ответ на Maxim Gorkiy (Показать комментарий) 1 нед. назад

Perhaps a video showing us how to do it the "right" way would be of interest to all those doing it "wrong"?
I tune my piano myself, and have many people say I am doing it "wrong" yet, it serves me quite well. I have not mastered the art of setting all the pins yet, some hold better than others. My piano isn't a very good one as in, it's not expensive, though I do enjoy the technical aspect of the instrument just as much as playing it.
I found this video very inspirational (inspirational.)
DumpYourTelevision в ответ на buttercupaz1 (Показать комментарий) 6 мес. Назад

SEI UN GRANDE TECNICO COMPLIMENTI.!!!
CONTINUA COSI'
caimano655 7 мес. назад

Grazie per apprezzare il mio lavoro! Cordiali saluti, sintonizzatore maxim_tuner
TheMaximillyan в ответ на caimano655 (Показать комментарий) 7 мес. назад

grisha8488
настройка пианино
Максим здравствуйте !!!! Хочу выразить огромную благодарность за ваши ролики и советы, я очень рад что есть такие люди как вы, я по вашему методу реставрировал пианино Красный Октябрь старое начала 60 годом пианино моей мамы ... последнее время считалось безнадежным так как строй совершенно не держало большенство колков не держали вообще , при настройке на глазах вращался назад в месте с ключем...если можно то как с вами связаться не в ютубе, и поговорить а по возможности созвониться или как то через интернет созвониться скайп или подобно. я сам из города Челябинск буду очень ждать от вас ответ !
с уважением Григорий


Smok


Ответ от: 28.01.2011 16:31:11

Совершенно случайно натолкнулся на эту статью, заинтересовало- прочел до конца. Я конечно не специалист в области настройки и ремонта музыкальных инструментов, но зато неплохо разбираюсь в резьбовых соединениях, и если механизм используемый в колках сделан по этому принципу, то метод предложеный автором Maximillyan должен работаь. Как говорят, "все гениальное-просто". А что касается неприятия большинством, так опять-же "Есть два мнения- мое и неправильное". Понятно, с одной стороны мастера всю жизнь занимающиеся этим исскуством (иначе назвать язык не поворачивается), с другой какой-то чудак с картонкой. Со своей позиции могу сказать одно, в ремонте механизмов приходится иногда и не такие "чудеса" применять. Если принцип работает, и с его помощью удается оживить даже безнадежные инструменты,то хочется пожелать автору успехов в его нужном деле. С уважением.

How about starting with a review of terminology???
For those who have never held a cardboard box, corrugated cardboard looks like this:



...try shoving some of that down a tuning pin hole

Thank you,Supply . A Savior of verticals our is corrugated cardboard ! It's it on picture

The of the method is exceptions to classic rule. You are right,Loren D that the cardboard is already in the process of screwing partially destroyed. When a pin screwed into place, it is not a strip thickness of 3mm. Are where disintegrate fragments of cellulose? It's disintegrate the strip basis of cardboard off and filled the cracks of bush-pinblock. Usually a pin hammered, I screwed it.
How it do:
1 A shim is not displaced in the process of screwing.
2 A pin acts as an iron (утюг) and dryer together. The fact is, there is something similar like the glue and pasting on a circle of cellulose on bush and pinblock's hole a new wood's layer . And at the same time polished it's. In fact, we just been repaired the pindlock's hole. End result is a relatively "new hole", a little reduced in diameter.
3 "The new friction" provide two materials - "eaten strip of cardboard" and disintegrated pulp
4 A follow the tuning after a year, for example, does not affect the technical characteristics of the "cured pin." There is one "but". After the initial installation shim it very tightly regulate tuning hammer.
5 The "old pin" is not suffering, is not subject to any deformation and remains in the same technical characteristics as it was originally.
6 Any other shim is expensive, in contrast to the corrugated cardboard
7 Any man watching my film can do it. One woman from Ukraine forced to watch a movie of her husband. He looked it and how she writes, " and he made pins!"
I have a big request to the masters- technicians of is not to condemn my method, if themself do not made this experiment. Sincerely,maxim_tuner

Max are you avare of the tension tuning pins have to hold? Do you realy think a cardboard can be a valid fix for a loose pin? I understand your lack of resources, I come from a country that was a communist one and can understand the conditions in which you work. But, maybe you should slow down a little bit and listen to the advices of a more experienced and trained techs. I do so even today although I have more than 10 years of experience...

Dear MariottoYou have understood that I am very limited in resources and use what I have in my practice. I am always looking for professional advice on our forum. However, the "cardboard and pin" is topic, which I successfully made in my district many years in past and I does it now . I tested a lot of other stuff and materials. The truth is that shim works. I hope that you will soon discover it for themselves. It is waiting for your experiment with cardboard. But communistic past is my past. Then I very good lived and I sincerely believed in humanistic ideal of the communism
Can You do short clip about this procedure?

The idea is to understand what the pin have to do in the hole, then the resources to correct a too loose pin are limited (thicker one pin, new wood, brass foil)

The elasticity of the cellulose may tighten the hole but it may not allow to lock the pin for long. Old blocks anyway are loosing their resiliency in the zone around the pin, the resiliency "migrates deeper in the block and the area around the pin is not resilient.
That, plus the wear is what makes even thicker pins not so efficient at some point, or not for long. Then indeed an experienced tuner will be able to tighten a tuning pin even in an old ovalised block
(I suggest that the pin when torqued, deforms, at some point, and then it will take an adapted shape that allow to some better grip)

The point is to know how to manipulate the tuning lever when the pin holding is basically poor, and obtain a bit of pin torque despite that. It can be surprizing .

Kamin,I agree with your every word here

Dear Max,
I allways try to do the best I can, even, I have to admit that due to the past which left our market with a lot of poor quallity east block pianos, sometimes it is impossible to do anything because a fix often would exceed the value of the instrument itself. So many times I leave it as it is or fix it just to have a basic funcionallity. I could belive that a cardboard could help a little bit, but it cannot be a valid and proffessional fix. It simply cannot be. Cellulose will eventually burn out in the hole. I admire your persistance but it has to have its limit. About communism we could talk, but I do not think we would agree on that metter. I would say only that if it wouldnt be so in the past, today you could simply order the tools you need from renner or any other supplyer and work with the highest standards...we wouldnt have this disscution today, maybe you would post on the theme Steinway or Fazioli....

Dear Mariotto,cellulose can not be burned when we to screw pin into pinblock used T-bar. It's more of fantasy. You raised the question correctly profitability rehabilitation including repair of pins and price upright piano. In Uralsk, Kazakhstan old Soviet piano is from 50-100 U.S. dollars, and if you do quality repairs then the price will increase a hundredfold. Therefore the client will remain with the non-playing piano. So I use a shim's method. For example, I replaced the 10 pins in 3 octave. The piano will activity for a year or more. I got a little fee 10-15 U.S. dollars. И волки сыты и овцы целы("The wolves are fed and the sheep are safe"). Maybe you're right, say that this repair is a necessary measure with a minimal budget to repair the piano located in between "the hospital resuscitation and the Gates of paradise"
P.S I Wait Your film about " Max's cardboard fix"
Regards

Reactionary skepticism British men about Max's shim cardboard fix
http://www.piano-tuners.org/piano-forums/viewtopic.php?p=44631

I suggest that no one is bashing you for trying to repair tired pianos with very limited budgets and gaining very little money, but the advantage of this sort of forum is to use experience from others and to find new points of view on subjects we are yet treating daily with acceptable success.

as eventual other methods where not tested this say enough about your willingness to learn to do better with limited means.

There was a discussion about a product sold that was supposed to add new cellulose to wood also. I dont hear about it anymore those days.

Having a drink of vodka usually also repair most of the pianos

To me very sad to hear the words of "vodka" after it as you wrote, I'll be able to work miracles. I do not drink alcohol than before or after repair. Nevertheless, the proposed methods shim in our forum, sorry not effective, I know this from his own experiments. To be consistent, it is necessary to deny the absurdity of the idea with the irrefutable evidence and technical facts or be silent. I will admit the failure of this method, if the parties to lay out their arguments against it. While I have not heard criticism against the absolute technical insolvency corrugated cardboard shim

I am sure that Kamin did not want to insult you, rather to add a little bit of humor into disscution. I will not do a video with the repair, or even try it, I use wrest plank plugs or metal bushing, theye are available at retail at price of arround 2 EUR. I simply want the repairvto last more than a year...
All the best!

Alas metal shim 2 euro pieces are not available for my potential clients in the near future. I do not insist that you,Mariotto abandoned your proven practical methods. However, I am sorry that you did not experience the pleasure of cardboard shima. Sincerely,maxim_tuner

Brass foil may be way cheaper and probably better than the metal plugs. Then nothing lost if the string breaks (the wood shaves does not stand for very long and have to be changed with the string.

But indeed the block may not be cracked.

Wood plugs can be done, if you use a lot buying the (expensive) tool to make them may be an option. you need 2 sorts one for the pins with wood bushings, and one larger. To be made in real Delignit block. As some of those those drills are made in Tcheckia or Hungary you may have access to them may be at a better price than us

http://www.outils-machines-haumesser.com/index.php?mod=shop&cat=126&pID=283

there are cheap versions but the lenght of the plug is only 12-20 mm at best.

Delignit brand is/was used for the floors of the trucks who travel with money from bank to bank. (may be another quality than the one for the pianos the glues may differ !)

So a piano tuner knows how to attack the truck, with a hammer and a tuning pin it may suffice

Sorry for the vodtka ! is not usually a big impeachment to work since you cut a hand or an arm.

I still say a shim is a shim is a shim. If sandpaper can work, I don't see why corrugated cardboard can't.

If the block needs replaced, then nothing short of replacing it is the correct fix. If block replacement is not an option, choose the method that's attainable,gives adequately good results, and minimizes stress on the instrument and surrounding pins.

Brass foil is probably yes, but that at the time,when we will screw into or to hammer is to drive the negative effects of contact with the pin-chopping. Iron + iron, I think it is wrong and most importantly for not long
I take Your sorry Kamin, for the vodka made. However, I realized that it was a joke