2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
88 members (AndrewJCW, Beemer, aphexdisklavier, anotherscott, 36251, Anglagard44, 19 invisible), 994 guests, and 540 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
tone of new strings
#1909318 06/06/12 10:08 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 574
500 Post Club Member
OP Offline
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 574
I recently had to replace a bichord pair at A2 on a small, very old Emerson grand that had been reconditioned and restrung about 15 years ago. (One had broken during tuning, and broke again during an attempt to splice, hence the need to replace both.)

The problem is that the new strings have a markedly different tonal quality than the old strings. I know this is unavoidable, to some extent, but usually the old strings sound dull and the new ones sound bright. In this case it's the opposite: the old strings have a very crisp sound, and the new ones thud. The customer is not happy, and I don't know what I can do for him. Try another pair from a different supplier?

thanks.


Anne Francis
Piano Tuner-Technician

Check out my blog! www.annefrancis.ca/blog

1906 Heintzman upright (rebuilt)
(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
Re: tone of new strings
Anne Francis #1909328 06/06/12 10:18 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 29,095
B
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 29,095
Take it up with the string maker. You may have gotten bad replacements.


Semipro Tech
Re: tone of new strings
Anne Francis #1909335 06/06/12 10:25 AM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 824
M
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 824
Anne:

If you fitted the strings correctly ... 1/2 twist at the hitch pin going the same way as the winding - tapped down the loop, nicely seated over the bridge pins ... then it can only be badly made strings. As you rightly point out, new bass strings are nearly always brighter than the old originals, and the most common fault with new replacements is when they haven't been fitted correctly and the windings rattle.

I would contact the maker and get replacements.

Were they dull sounding when fitted by you, or have they gone dull sounding shortly after fitting? I only ask because I've known customers try to polish new bass strings and completely ruin them frown


Concert Tuner & Technician for the past 52 years in the United Kingdom
www.jphillipspianoservices.freeindex.co.uk : E-mail jophillips06@aol.com
Re: tone of new strings
Anne Francis #1909345 06/06/12 10:39 AM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
O
9000 Post Club Member
Offline
9000 Post Club Member
O
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
No twist for the double winded, say my bassmaker ( inside is turning the opposite direction than external winding, makes sence) - up to 1.5 turns for smaller ones. ( But in the end he say that if the wire is well made it keep straight and do not twist on itself when it is out of the package)


Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: tone of new strings
Anne Francis #1909353 06/06/12 10:58 AM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 824
M
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 824
Isaac:

In reality when fitting new bass strings one seldom finds that the eye lines up perectly straight to the hitch pin after winding the wrestpin coils ( With wrest pins out of the plank ) ... that is why I say 1/2 a turn ... it's safer to do this than risk having loosened the outer winding.


Concert Tuner & Technician for the past 52 years in the United Kingdom
www.jphillipspianoservices.freeindex.co.uk : E-mail jophillips06@aol.com
Re: tone of new strings
MU51C JP #1909360 06/06/12 11:03 AM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
O
9000 Post Club Member
Offline
9000 Post Club Member
O
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
Ys I understand. But many turn them a full turn. I am not even sure a good string will sound better with 1.5 turn than with the security you state.
My bass winder is not opposed to that habit, but not sure it is better...


Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: tone of new strings
Anne Francis #1909365 06/06/12 11:07 AM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
O
9000 Post Club Member
Offline
9000 Post Club Member
O
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
Also a bass string not so well made will twist on itself by reaction when it goes out of the lathe. this may be noticed before mounting. there I understand better the need for twisting


Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: tone of new strings
Anne Francis #1909377 06/06/12 11:13 AM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 824
M
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 824
As you say ..... There are good and not so good string makers ... so I find it best to always employ someone who has the best reputation for quality work rather than best price. Over twisting a string is seldom ever needed on a good set.


Concert Tuner & Technician for the past 52 years in the United Kingdom
www.jphillipspianoservices.freeindex.co.uk : E-mail jophillips06@aol.com
Re: tone of new strings
Anne Francis #1909384 06/06/12 11:25 AM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,456
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,456
I hope the bass strings are not the only suspects here being considered responsible for the discouraging sound.

Sting makers are being thrown under the bus before other potential issues such as design, sound board condition and bridge condition are being discussed.


"It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."
Mark Twain

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
http://www.facebook.com/EJBuckPerformances
Re: tone of new strings
Anne Francis #1909388 06/06/12 11:39 AM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 824
M
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 824
Who knows Larry - From what was indicated it seems that only the new strings are suspect. Nothing would suggest bridge, design, or soundboard issues. We can only guess from the information supplied. I naturally assume, this being a tuner / technician forum, that posters generally know what they're talking about. wink


Concert Tuner & Technician for the past 52 years in the United Kingdom
www.jphillipspianoservices.freeindex.co.uk : E-mail jophillips06@aol.com
Re: tone of new strings
Anne Francis #1909397 06/06/12 11:56 AM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,456
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,456
John, As you well know, That section at the top of the bass bridge or bottom of the tenor, especially in a small grand, is especially prone to they kind of issue described.

If I was suspecting new strings as having an issue, I might twist them as much as 2 entire turns, in the direction of the wrap if I suspected unusually loose windings.

There is a well known string maker that has recommended 2 to 3 entire twists in the bichords. I have not used him in several years though.

Check to be sure the ends of the core under the copper are swedged and in good condition.



"It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."
Mark Twain

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
http://www.facebook.com/EJBuckPerformances
Re: tone of new strings
Anne Francis #1909488 06/06/12 02:14 PM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,456
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,456
I just read in the piano forum a thread about bad sounding bass strings.

I may be combining stories in my head as I respond ...

Old Age ... Not pretty




"It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."
Mark Twain

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
http://www.facebook.com/EJBuckPerformances
Re: tone of new strings
Anne Francis #1909502 06/06/12 02:38 PM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 824
M
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 824
Ha Ha Larry ..... I know how you feel ..... Having been fit and well, and never having to see a doctor in decades .... today I get a letter from a specialist who signs himself " Consultant in Stroke Medicine/ Elderly Care" after a little scare I had a week or two back!

All this vast experience in the trade .... and now it seems I'm going to the dogs !!! As you say Larry " Old age ..... Not pretty " smile


Concert Tuner & Technician for the past 52 years in the United Kingdom
www.jphillipspianoservices.freeindex.co.uk : E-mail jophillips06@aol.com
Re: tone of new strings
Anne Francis #1909589 06/06/12 04:48 PM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 283
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 283
Anne, I don't know if you ordered from the same place as I did recently but the copper winding had come right off of the helix on one of the strings I got. They replaced it but I'm out of luck for the service call.


Piano Technician
www.pianotech.ca
Piano tuners make the world a better place, one string at a time.
Re: tone of new strings
Anne Francis #1909659 06/06/12 07:01 PM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 944
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 944
Anne,

Who provided the string maker with the dimensions of the strings to reproduce? Your measurements, or did you send him the strings for him to determine the core/wrap etc?

Also, does the winding run up too close or perhaps too far from from the agraffe/bridge pin in relation to the other strings.

I'm assuming they are not universal bass strings...??

Jim Ialeggio



Jim Ialeggio
www.grandpianosolutions.com
advanced soundboard and action redesigns
978 425-9026
Shirley Center, MA
Re: tone of new strings
Anne Francis #1909664 06/06/12 07:13 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 574
500 Post Club Member
OP Offline
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 574
Thanks for all the suggestions. In fact the strings are not well matched... but I assumed that would only affect tuning the unisons, which frankly were no worse than the other pairs in that area. (It is not a great-sounding piano. But it gets played a lot.) And yes I was able to send one of the old ones for duplication.

Thomson, I'll PM you re supplier.


Anne Francis
Piano Tuner-Technician

Check out my blog! www.annefrancis.ca/blog

1906 Heintzman upright (rebuilt)
Re: tone of new strings
Anne Francis #1910070 06/07/12 02:05 PM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,570
R
rXd Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
R
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,570
Yes, Anne, have your stringwinder make another pair. Inform them that the strings they sent were mismatched and dead.

Let your stringwinder be the final arbiter of how many half turns they recommend for their strings.

As Johnkie says, up to half a turn is standard.
A further half turn or two will help liven an older string. Normally, more than 3 half turns and the string will become dull and rattly again. New strings where the maker asks 2 turns are beyond my experience.

I have heard it said that a good string will bounce around when dropped on a concrete floor. A dead one will not bounce.


Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.


Re: tone of new strings
Olek #1910085 06/07/12 02:35 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,263
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,263
Originally Posted by Kamin
No twist for the double winded, say my bassmaker ( inside is turning the opposite direction than external winding, makes sence) - up to 1.5 turns for smaller ones. ( But in the end he say that if the wire is well made it keep straight and do not twist on itself when it is out of the package)


From Gregor Heller;

Dear Dan!

We recommend to twist the strings 1 1/2 turns ( 1 + 1/2 ) clockwise.
The double wounded strings only 1/2 turn clockwise.

Cheers!
Gregor


www.hellerbass.de


Re: tone of new strings
Anne Francis #1910139 06/07/12 04:38 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
O
9000 Post Club Member
Offline
9000 Post Club Member
O
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
Yes Dan, the same, I forget about the half turn, in fact it is done because of the insertion of the pin, if not it would be twisted in the opposite direction which is not recommended. But the reason not to twist more the double wound is that there is 2 winding directions (he told me).

Cheers

PS never had top send back a string to Gregor, they are always very good and precise. And I like the measurement method, to order from the web or by mail. (it is unnecessary to measure all the thicknesses, a few on the beginning and at the end of the series are enough, unless you want to compute and order precise dimensions)



Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: tone of new strings
Anne Francis #1910160 06/07/12 05:37 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,263
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,263

Hi Isaac,
Yes only half turn on the double wound strings. I like to order process from HellerBass; very fast and easy to measure the A’s and B’s and send the orders. Very high quality product he has there. Never had a problem here either.

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
What's Hot!!
News from the Piano World
100,000!
---------------------
NEW! Sell Your Piano on our world famous Piano Forums!
---------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Searching for my first piano
by AndresVel - 01/16/21 03:34 PM
Tuning pin video
by accordeur - 01/16/21 03:22 PM
Concert pianist opintions regarding DP actions
by Marc345 - 01/16/21 02:50 PM
Size, placement, brand
by Anjru - 01/16/21 02:31 PM
KAWAI CA79 METRONOME
by Giovanni Zanini - 01/16/21 01:43 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums42
Topics204,299
Posts3,047,439
Members100,079
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


© copyright 1997 - 2021 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.4