Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum Non-Rant - EBVT vs ET - Civillian Pianist

Sooner or later you need to seek information, even if you're doing your own research. I would hope the information you end up relying on is at least sourced, referenced, and reliable.

If you are transposing to C and it has a "beginners" sound, it means that you are playing on a piano tuned with UT. Otherwise there would be no difference in "sound."

So, if you are playing something by Rachmaninov in D-minor and you transpose it to C-minor, it will have a beginner's sound? So much for the deep sonorities of the 3rd Concerto.

No matter what temperament the piano has, the orchestra would not be playing in ET.

(You never did answer my previous question, BTW)

I need information all the time. It's my business. I'm pretty good at it, but thanks for your advice.

Sorry Marty, my aversion to C has nothing to do with temperament. I have a keen sense of what is unfortunately often called "perfect pitch". The key of C and its associated scaling has a specific color to me as opposed to varying shades of frequency. When I hear C, I know its C. C minor does not bother me so much. I am not inspired to seek a temperament that favours this key to others. It limits me right off the bat.

I'm not sure what question you referred to. If it was about listening to orchestras ect...yes I understand your point. However we are in a piano forum talking about pianos which are universally tuned in ET, or occasionally tuned to something else.

I'd revise that to say that we are talking about pianos that are rarely played ET, though are sometimes purposefully and carefully tuned to ET, while more musicians and owners are finding that a "better" option is having them tuned to something other than ET...

Ron Koval

Well stirring the pot in a civil way is sometimes what is needed to get people thinking or talking. Otherwise a site like this, primarily for piano technicians, will begin to take on the appearance of a bunch of Ferrari mechanics sitting around discussing oil changes.

Ah yes,

Using the temperament of an orchestra or chorus to make a comment about ET in a tuner/tech forum is not appropriate.

In the future, I shall only discuss fly poop on Ferraris.

Marty, with this group, you might as well just give it up. They will never admit fault, never address anything that is a valid point, instead, they just pass right on by it and always want the last complaint and just have to be right. Talk about not being open minded...

I like Coke. That means, they like Pepsi. So, now I like Mountain Dew too.

Daddy why am I going around and around in circles ? "Be quiet or I'll nail the other foot to the floor"

You guys behave yourselves now because......................................

Believe me Marty, I have read and appreciate your comments but I refuse to add fuel to the fire.

Hey if anyone needs pot stirring or coal raking, let me know. I'm available...

There is a very reputed reording stuoin Paris, where the harpsichprd is tuned with acoustivally pure 5ths.
melodicoctaves are perfect. the beating in octaves anddoubles, shtrangely,did not bother me. Probably because the higher harmony amd sensation of justness was overpassing the non conform aspect.
The day I noticed that makes me more open to aoccept that our definition of intonation is certainly restrictive.

ClsscLib, thanks for trying to bring a short moment of sanity into the Wikibashing. (And yes, I know first-hand the consequences of trying to correct misinformation in a college class. One of the reasons I left academia.)

Methinks I should summarily have deleted the word "Wikipedia" from my first post - that would probably have saved us half the noise on this thread. In fact, in terms of actual content, e.g. ET being a geometric progression, the rate of which corresponds to the chosen stretch, I see very little disagreement between my posts, those of Loren and those of Ron. But I used the wicked W-word... so what I wrote must be wrong!

Outta here...

Some of you was mentioning Wikipedia, related sources, reliability etc...

This early morning, searching the web, I opened a page titled Historical Temperaments. There, under the FAQ's appearances, I happened to find a sort of WT's manifesto signed by Ed Foote RPT.

Along with the "expert" sounding verbiage narrating the whole scenery, please countercheck and see if you manage to find any scientific source.

http://www.piano-tuners.org/piano-forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1320

Marty and all Gentlemen, perhaps you know the saying "Cui Prodest"?

That page (point 11) may give you an answer:

"Tuners are now able to provide them (HT's). The tuning community has, in the last decade, been able to combine the research of Owen Jorgensen with the modern programmable tuning machine. This combination makes the recreation of a wide range of historical temperaments easily available to the working technician. As a result, pianists are being
given an opportunity to hear the piano music in more than one tuning. Once a pianist plays music on temperaments that were in use when the piece was written, they often find a greater depth and expression in the sound."

We could well order the potential recipients:

Tuners: like ice-cream, ...there are of all kinds;

The tuning community: ...we get many ideas in PW;

Modern programmable tuning machine: like for tuners and ice-cream, ...what you get is not always what you expect;

Pianists: like for tuners, ice-cream and tuning machines, ...can be challenging;

Piano music: like for tuners, ice-cream, tuning machines and pianists, ...might require a dedicated approach;

Greater depth and expression in the sound: like for tuners, ice-cream, tuning machines, pianists and piano music, ...if it is for free, it might all be welcome.

As a tuning community, do we need amateur/non referenced advertising? Could we not organize an "Ice-cream for free" party?

Regards, a.c.
.

The reason I called you on it is because you told the other poster that he was misinformed, and suggest he check Wikipedia to learn more about it. I was just pointing out that he could do that and still be misinformed, because it's not a reliable source for information. Sorry if that bothers you! I don't accept anything using W as a source because anyone can edit it.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to add my 2 cents about nuclear physics.

*edited for further clarification*

Jerry, what "group"? Over 15 contributers to the thread including yourself.

"Open mindedness" is not my concern nor the concern of 99.9% of the techs out there who tune ET...its an issue for the .1% who are trying to sway the vast majority away from accepted norms. Your upset that we are not making an arguement in your favour?

Jerry, are you open minded about say, child porn being acceptable? Would you accept somebodies arguement that your close minded about it, if they can't sway you in favour of their opposing views on the matter?

Well, I've witnessed the inadequacies EBVT and UT's addressing the issue of moving through all keys without issues.

I've witnessed the inadequacies of trying to tune temperaments with ETD offsets alone.

I've witnessed the inadequacies of the present incomplete aural sequence for setting EBVT.

I've witnessed an irate customer who had EBVT sprung on them without prior consultation.

But in regards to open mindedness, I and several other techs who choose to discuss ET vs non-ET, are more open minded about it (by discussing it) than the 10's of thousands of techs who choose to simply ignore it, and just go on tuning ET.

ET is as much an accepted norm amongst customers as a person expecting their coffee to be hot when ordering from the coffee shop. So we have moved to a period where UT's are being sprinkled into the mix just like the recent trend for ice coffee. I have no issues with the new kid on the block (EBVT) being promoted or marketed to customers, as long as the customers are informed or given a choice before hand.
To do any different is both dishonest, and a gamble.

Even products that are altered or improved have some kind of information on their labels indicating "new" or "improved" to let the brand loyal customers know they are plopping down money for something that is different from what they have come to expect in the past.

Every person I have asked, including recent customers of mine, have all commented that if they are paying for a service, they expect to know ahead of time, if that service is different from what they would expect or had in the past, of if that service involves a "gamble".

Your Emmeryness,

This might be the first thing that you and I have agreed upon. It is quite obvious that you are not concerned with openmindedness.

Lets see here, you are now equating UT to child porn? Or are you saying that closed mindedness cannot be pornographic? Or do you consider any temperament other than your form of ET to be abusive?

I authored this thread to be a Non-Rant. I do not thank you for bringing your pet rant here. Being open minded, I will tolerate it, however. Others can make their own assessment.


Jerry - There have been other participants who have contributed to the discussion. Others have merely remained closed minded and taken an 'I'm right, you're wrong' attitude.

[quote=Emmery
>> "Open mindedness" is not my concern nor the concern of 99.9% of the techs out there who tune ET...its an issue for the .1% who are trying to sway the vast majority away from accepted norms. Your upset that we are not making an arguement in your favour? <<

.1% ? Where do you get that number from? Out of 1,000 techs only ONE is going to be using a variety of temperaments? That is totally out of the reality that I live in. And I am not trying to sway anyone from accepted norms, (unless those other 99.9% are trying desperately to hide behind the status quo).
>>Well, I've witnessed the inadequacies EBVT and UT's addressing the issue of moving through all keys without issues. <<

Have you witnessed the destruction of harmony in Mozart played on ET?

>> I've witnessed the inadequacies of trying to tune temperaments with ETD offsets alone.

I have seen far more inadequacies in aural tuning of anything than I have seen in comparisons of offset tunings vs aural well temperaments.

>>ET is as much an accepted norm amongst customers as a person expecting their coffee to be hot when ordering from the coffee shop.

Not around here. And that is a pretty thin analogy, since most customers know what coffee is, and few piano owners know what a temperament is. I am constantly gaining new customers because I tune a wide variety of temperaments. These pianists are not locked in to the status quo, they are making decisions with their ears and their wallets. And they are not dilettantes with a spinet in the living room, ( who, I suppose, get the full explanation of why ET is being put on their spinet, which has never had a compostion in F# played on it in its life.)

ET is a beautiful construction. Like a crescent wrench, it fits everything equally, but does nothing with the full emotional expression that music is capable of. It is good for those that listen intellectually, a disaster for others with a broader range of musical taste.
regards,

Obviously, open mindedness has never been a concern of yours.

Being right 100 % of the time along with trying to prove someone else wrong IS a very strong concern of yours.

You are wrong about the 99.9 %. Most people are very open minded. You're grasping at straws now.

I said, in another part of this thread that some people like Steinway. Some like Bosendorfer, some like Yamaha. It is a matter of preference. Accepting that someone else might like something different, or prefer something different is being open minded. I am that. If you only want to tune in ET. Who cares? Do it. If someone else wants to tune using 5 different methods, I say, GREAT!



Don't be an ass Emmery. That statement is utterly ridiculous and totally unacceptable. You are showing your true colors now. For that you get the flying monkeys!!!

I know Marty, I was only referring to a couple in here, you know who...