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#1932602 - 07/26/12 09:54 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D]  
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Max, I believe that the hole may not be cracked, but only too much compressed, hence low elasticity of the wood and too much space between the pin and the block.

Due to the dimensions in order, I wonder if the very light torque + bend applied to the tuning pin suffice to compensate for some wear, up to some point of course. (then the pin is less straight in the hole.
When I feel the torque in the block raising I can feel it as if at first only a little torque exists at the bottom of the pin, then after a few tuning manipulations, the friction raise from the bottom of the pin to a higher part of it.in the end I can feel the grip on half of the pin, or may be 2/3.

Paper may add more friction than some oily wood, sure when poplar shims are used they fall in dust too, but the pin can be hammered.

If the block have really cracked layers, I dont believe it can be really repaired without gluing new wood dowels.








Last edited by Kamin; 07/26/12 09:55 AM.

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#1932646 - 07/26/12 11:13 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Olek]  
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Originally Posted by Kamin
Max, I believe that the hole may not be cracked, but only too much compressed, hence low elasticity of the wood and too much space between the pin and the block.

Isaac,I'm mean just micro cracks around the cylindrical outer wall of the hole of bush and hole's pinblock . I admit, and your assumption about of strong wood compression. I'm think so that (wood layers of a pinblock) can loose their a hitch gluing

#1932648 - 07/26/12 11:18 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Olek]  
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Originally Posted by Kamin

Due to the dimensions in order, I wonder if the very light torque + bend applied to the tuning pin suffice to compensate for some wear, up to some point of course. (then the pin is less straight in the hole.
When I feel the torque in the block raising I can feel it as if at first only a little torque exists at the bottom of the pin, then after a few tuning manipulations, the friction raise from the bottom of the pin to a higher part of it.in the end I can feel the grip on half of the pin, or may be 2/3.


Bravo,Isaac.
This axiom must be understood a tuner of piano

#1932651 - 07/26/12 11:27 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D]  
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Some folks have mentioned some success with epoxy on cracked blocks. I don't know how nice that pin will feel afterwards since I normally try and scrub out residual glue powder with a gun brush and blow clean after reaming, before driving in a new pin.

The 1/2" delignit pinblock dowels work great if you prep them properly for installation. I stipple the outer surface with a sharp punch for better adhesion.
Normal dowels with the grain aligned in the direction of the pin length will not provide a long term good solution.

Some suppliers are selling broken up sets of pins now (dozen/half dozen ect..) so there really is no big financial set back not to be supplied with every size/length configuration for in field repairs. You can supply yourself with every combination possible (including blued and nickel plated) for about the cost of a full set of decent pins these days.


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George Brown College /85
Niagara Region
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#1933949 - 07/29/12 03:54 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Emmery]  
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Originally Posted by Emmery
I normally try and scrub out residual glue powder with a gun brush and blow clean after reaming, before driving in a new pin.

Emmery, I do think that so epoxy's glued and the frozen section of a pinblock will be greatly have the necessary friction between wood metal pins. However, what you are doing pre-cleaning this a holes after the epoxy's hardens"a gun brush" it is correct. Thus, when screwing or if a hammering of mallet a pin will not be badly as a pin out change. You can tuning this pin. It's will have a uniform frictions and will not be any problem for the technic

#1934168 - 07/29/12 01:11 PM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D]  
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Max, you may have misunderstood what I wrote. I don't use epoxy as a repair for cracked pin blocks myself. I'm not 100% sure, but I think it was Del Fandrich who mentioned this repair option in another post a while back. I believe the pin is driven into the wet epoxy and then it gets twisted/broken free after it sets. Since I haven't used this process myself I can't comment on what kind of condition it leaves the pin in, for tuning afterwards.

The gun brush I use is a new .270 caliber bronze bristled brush or a worn out 30 cal. brush for oversized holes. I have it attached to a T handle. I will use the brush after drilling a pin hole or reaming one, just to loosen any glue residue, sawdust and glazing. Once its blown out with high pressure air you are left with nice clean wood contact on the pin that gets driven in.



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#1934389 - 07/29/12 09:28 PM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Emmery]  
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Originally Posted by Emmery
Max, you may have misunderstood what I wrote. I don't use epoxy as a repair for cracked pin blocks myself. I'm not 100% sure, but I think it was Del Fandrich who mentioned this repair option in another post a while back. I believe the pin is driven into the wet epoxy and then it gets twisted/broken free after it sets.

Emmery,I'm sorry, I thought that we are talking about repairing cracks with epoxy block. What concerns the direct injection of epoxy into the hole, I say "No". If we pour epoxy into the hole and then put the pin back, it is glued a pin with wood hole of the block. I think that a tuning such a pin would be difficult to make

Last edited by Maximillyan; 07/29/12 09:29 PM.
#1934574 - 07/30/12 07:04 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D]  
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I read the message, "Emmery". His entire message confirms that the carboard is effective.I’m entirely sure.

#1934983 - 07/30/12 09:47 PM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Alexandr]  
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Originally Posted by Alexandr
I read the message, "Emmery". His entire message confirms that the carboard is effective.I’m entirely sure.

Dear Alexandr I also hope that the message by Emmery is a good example for practical technicians of a piano. There they were able to see examples of his rehabilitation work with the piano (East Europe) to use that cardboard is really able to establish the loose pins. I can only add that the installation of corrugated board works perfectly. Dear technicians do not be afraid to use it in my own everyday practice

#1940121 - 08/10/12 12:21 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D]  
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In some cases, I use a thick more 3mm corrugated shim

#1940265 - 08/10/12 10:40 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Alexandr]  
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Originally Posted by Alexandr
In some cases, I use a thick more 3mm corrugated shim

There are times when the bush and the hole of pinblock is considerably lost its original factory size. Their wooden part of the damaged much more than usual. I admit that the technican would be feel this pin which lost its hard status in the hole. I think that is possible here to use corrugated cardboard shim more than 3 mm ( size 4-4.5) mm. In this case it is advisable not to overdo it in oversize the shim when we will turn pin in the hole. It will be difficult to catch the hammer in the desired location a during tuning

Last edited by Maximillyan; 08/10/12 10:41 AM.
#1941265 - 08/12/12 08:57 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D]  
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Today a man sent me this link. There my article about corrugated shim, someone has translated into Ukrainian
http://wordlaw.org.ua/2012/05/10/tradicii-i-realnist-abo-shhe-raz-pro-kolki.html

#1942327 - 08/14/12 01:43 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: MU51C JP]  
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Originally Posted by Johnkie
will generate a great deal of heat that can only be a bad thing for an already "soft" plank. Hammering in pins is by far the best practice of stringing .... it's quick ... and more to the point ... it causes MUCH LESS heat and potential damage to the plank.

http://ivavawogoden.my3gb.com/loose-tuning-pianos-piano.php
British men at the beginning ridiculed Max, but link remained

#1951935 - 08/31/12 08:18 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D]  
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Edward guy from Slovakia don't hammering a pin as maxim_tuner when he repaired his old upright is Roemhildt-Weimar (1881)[b][/b]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUjNpjPnB5M

#1953725 - 09/04/12 08:53 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Maximillyan]  
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Originally Posted by Maximillyan
Edward guy from Slovakia don't hammering a pin as maxim_tuner when he repaired his old upright is Roemhildt-Weimar (1881)[/b]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUjNpjPnB5M


Edward wrote[b]"Yes! I completely agree, Sir! .....This is main reason, why I didn't want to use hammer and chose way of screwing all the way in...sometimes I used hammer..but it was 1 -2 blows to stick it ....but not always"

#1953744 - 09/04/12 10:19 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D]  
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Max, there are several reasons why hammering the pin in is better than winding it in when installing.

In fact, in Reblitzs' book (Pg 97) he advises..."...Place the pin setter on the pin, and drive it in with the hammer, leaving a small space between the wire and the plate. The pin setter prevents the pin from turning too much when struck with the hammer..." The particular pin setter he refers to has a side handle to stabilize it and the head actuall fits over the tapers on the pin preventing it from turning.

I use a setter that contacts the top of the pin and does not fix it in place rotationally, but if the pins driven in with 3-4 really solid blows, it turns very little in the process and it does not heat up very much.

The surface of the fine threads on the pin are actually quite course because they are manufactured with a threading die. These are very shallow threads that do not conform to the standard 60 deg Unified Thread profile. These tiny serations will size up the hole a bit if you wind that pin around 30-40 times.

Look at the surface finish photos of metal after being threaded on pg 193-195 of the following...
http://www.me.mtu.edu/~jwsuther/Publications/150_PA030.pdf

This should give you a better understanding that the pin acts like fine sandpaper.

As an experiment, you can take two identically tight pins, remove them and re-install. Drive one in with a hammer and wind the other one in. You will find them both a bit looser from the process but the one that is wound in will be slightly worse.

BTW, at the end of the video... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUjNpjPnB5M that newly set pin you see has a big gap between the becket and the first coil...this is not a proper way to tighten a coil. It is not good enough that the coils are together; they must also be up tight against the becket.


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#1954541 - 09/05/12 11:51 PM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Emmery]  
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Originally Posted by Emmery

The surface of the fine threads on the pin are actually quite course because they are manufactured with a threading die. These are very shallow threads that do not conform to the standard 60 deg Unified Thread profile. These tiny serations will size up the hole a bit if you wind that pin around 30-40 times.

Dear Emmery, I believe that the classic method of hammering repair a pin has established itself as a truly reliable and time-tested. I agree that the gossamer thread of a pin can not increase more friction between metal and wood holes if repair oversize pin to twist. What we need to use the setter is right. However, I admit that the newly resettled pin to hold its gossamer thread, because Slovak man the plays do not sound bad. So as a result of additional frictions screwing as good when he screwed oversize pins in the pinblock

#1955146 - 09/07/12 12:10 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Emmery]  
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Originally Posted by Emmery

I use a setter that contacts the top of the pin and does not fix it in place rotationally, but if the pins driven in with 3-4 really solid blows, it turns very little in the process and it does not heat up very much.

Yes,Emmery. Professional technician of piano does it because he knows how to hit the repair pins. He hits and use a setter and he knows what force should be his beats. But if this operation would make an amateur, we can get no good. I would recommend an amateur(beginer) technician of piano to rotation oversize pin use T-bar. To avoid burns wood of the pinblock to do rotational movements are very slow and take a break after each installation of a pin. Then success is guaranteed, I'm hope!

#1985677 - 11/12/12 11:20 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D]  
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Flood. Western Kazakhstan 2011. New life Piano "Petrof" Part #3

I do not understand why you loves on professional music forums. After all, such as insertion of cardboard pinblock is the only way in such circumstances (town Uralsk, no new parts but a piano should be recovered quickly).

И не понимаю, почему вас так не любят на профессиональных форумах. Ведь например, вставка картона в вирбельбанк это единственное средство в таких условиях (Уральск, нет новых деталей, и пианино надо восстановить быстро).
Тимофей Токарев в ответ на TheMaximillyan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDX-84UJqm8

#2001925 - 12/19/12 11:57 PM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D]  
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Сегодня пришло письмо благодарности от Антонины. Я настроил её пианино "Аккорд", которое было изготовлено аж в 1963году. Прекрасный строй и держание строя.Я очень тронут. Вот её реплика с Ю-туба:


Antonina Gerelis 10 ч. назад

Hi everybody! I had probs with my piano - pins were unfixed. Maxim_tuner came and fixed them with corrugated cardboard, now my piano " Akkord" sounds like a new one!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZLHrSnWAFw

#2003294 - 12/23/12 01:24 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D]  
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tonika64
Не надо врать клиенту! Согласен! Но врете Вы, говоря, что таким образом делаете им услугу. Эта услуга медвежья. То, чем Вы занимаетесь, называется шарлатанство. Забивая или вкручивая под вирбель (колок) посторонние предметы, вы нарушаете геометрию отверстия, при чем нагрузки вокруг вирбеля распределяются неравномерно. Вирбельбанк дает трещины, и потом ремонт еще дороже.Это не профессионально.Вы экономите на деталях, чтобы сбить цену за нормалюную профессиональную работу. Вы гробите инструменты.

Today I received an angry comment on my video from professional piano's tuner Ukraine by a professional piano tuner
"Do not lie to the customer! Agree! But you're lying, saying that so do them a favor. This service is bearish. So what you are doing is called fraud. Beating or screwing a virbel (pin), foreign objects, you are breaking the geometry holes to do with the load unevenly distributed around a pin. Pinblock will deads, and then repair more expensive. This is not professional. You are save on details to bring down the price of a normal professional work. Dead pianos is your method . "
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gi_8mh-AFYA

#2003378 - 12/23/12 07:53 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D]  
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This topic has run its course now MAX - You just keep saying the same old things that were said a year ago. You carry on doing what you consider the correct thing to do .... and have a merry Christmas.


Concert Tuner & Technician for the past 52 years in the United Kingdom
www.jphillipspianoservices.freeindex.co.uk : E-mail jophillips06@aol.com
#2003731 - 12/24/12 02:11 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: MU51C JP]  
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Originally Posted by Johnkie
This topic has run its course now MAX - You just keep saying the same old things that were said a year ago. You carry on doing what you consider the correct thing to do .... and have a merry Christmas.

Max would be glad not to write in this thread. But I can see that some of the citizens of the former Soviet countries do not understand the technical aspects of the problem of lose pin and they bombarded angry comments on Maх's clips . I'm just trying to explain to them that the only corrugated shim is panacea in decision the problem. It's always works.
Johnkie,believe me, this topic is not exhausted in the last year. "Everything has just begun!"
With great respect to all technicians our forum, which visited a discussion about the corrugated cardboard shim, Max
Merry Christmas!

#2006936 - 12/31/12 10:04 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: MU51C JP]  
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Originally Posted by Johnkie
You just keep saying the same old things that were said a year ago.


Maxim! At the same trouble, but (!) It manifested itself when I moved the German piano JOST from parents from Simferopol (the house was made of limestone and was located near the river Salgir) to the city-hero of Kharkov (Ukrainian-Russian border). Apartment on the 6th floor of a high-rise building, built of foam block. Heating good and dry. And good music in my house sounded before the first heating season. And then, come complete "kapets"(end) whole a tuning. All rassohlos. I remove this pins and they can not be tightened, because they do not care "unscrewed. Now if you are still" in the subject line, "tell me, please, what you used cardboard, and how you: it is screwed onto the pins, or insert a tube into the old holes? Sincerely. Gromyko Igor

22 декабря 2012 в 15:58
Максим! У та же самая беда, НО (!) она проявилась, когда я перевёз немецкое пианино JOST от родителей из Симферополя (дом был сделан из ракушечника и располагался недалеко от реки Салгир) в город-Герой Харьков (граница Украины и России). Квартира на 6-м этаже высотного дома, построенного из пенобетона. Отопление хорошее, сухо. И натуральная музыка в моём доме звучала до первого отопительного сезона. А далее, наступил полный капец всей настройке. Всё рассохлось. Колки выкрутились и их невозможно закрутить, так как они всё равно "развинчиваются. Теперь , если Вы ещё "в теме", подскажите, пож, какой гофрокартон Вы использовали? И как Вы: его накручивали на колки, или вставляли трубочкой в старые отверстия? С уважением. Громыко Игорь Алексеевич
http://shkolazhizni.ru/blog/378772/

Last edited by Maximillyan; 12/31/12 10:06 AM.
#2009947 - 01/06/13 12:18 PM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D]  
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Arthur Vereshaka

Silent horror!
Тихий ужас!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-VYv04-KXE&list=PLDD6668CC75A16250&index=3

#2041747 - 03/02/13 08:46 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D]  
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Ilya Mamedov
я руководствуясь данным видео сделал запресcовку двух нестроющих колков своего пианино. Метод прекрасно работает. Могу рекомендовать его как способ закрепления колков
http://youtu.be/CGk3dS6dKow
Based on this video I set up a shim under two loose pins my upright piano. The method works fine. I can recommend it as a way of fixing

#2063304 - 04/12/13 05:46 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D]  
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Bass string. Max's shim(fix)online
http://youtu.be/--slQtf7H_c

#2103183 - 06/16/13 04:35 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D]  
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Maximillyan Offline
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Maximillyan  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,999
KZ
Today I re-watched video YouTube Sasha5970418
I am very glad for his work. Sasha repaired hospital piano with using cardboard shim.
"If you vidili the state he was!. When I came to (a hospital) here are sunflower seeds, candy wrappers out of a box of juice and many other dirt.
By keeping a diary, I found that recovering of this piano I'd spent 24.5 hours. Most of the work it's repair of hammers. And a time when I deleted grooves from a hammer. A temperament after ten years no one did it. A piano's hammers was "hollowed" is very strong. I'm very pleased - this is what all the pins hold pitch and it's general goal. Thank you very much uncle Max for his help".


Sasha5970418 11 мес. назад
Если бы Вы видили в каком он состоянии был!.Когда я пришел(это больница) в инструменте находились семечки,фантики коробка из под сока и прочие нечистоты.
Ведя дневник,я посчитал, что на востановление этого инструмента ушло 24,5 часа.Большую часть работ заняла шлифовка молотков и темперация(всё-таки десять лет этим никто не занимался,а инструмент "долбили" очень сильно.Кстати,что порадовало - это то,что все колки держали строй и это главное.Спасибо Вам большое д. Максим за Вашу помощь.

#2128839 - 08/06/13 08:18 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D]  
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,999
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Maximillyan  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,999
KZ
Jazz pianist Eric tried to set some sort shims on your own piano for pin's tighten . Dear technicians, I bad understand English, so I want to ask your to clarify whether Eric was possible to do this? What is his result with a shim? Is it good or bad?
http://late-to-jazz.blogspot.com/2011/01/day-76-sunday-january-9-more-things-to.html

#2128860 - 08/06/13 09:23 AM Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D]  
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 820
MU51C JP Offline
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MU51C JP  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 820
England
If he was using the metal shims Max ... it just doesn't work ! They are terrible and he would be better off using sandpaper or your preferred cardboard.

Last edited by Johnkie; 08/06/13 09:23 AM.

Concert Tuner & Technician for the past 52 years in the United Kingdom
www.jphillipspianoservices.freeindex.co.uk : E-mail jophillips06@aol.com
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