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Re: Digital Pianos: Where to Start?
bennevis #1906403 06/01/12 06:44 AM
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Originally Posted by bennevis
If you're purely into classical and don't need any bells & whistles but want the closest DP to an acoustic in terms of response to touch, dynamics, resonances, 'feel', i.e. all those things that let you forget that you're not playing a mechanical instrument, you won't do any better than the Roland V-Piano/Grand. Play it using your headphones, then play any other DP to see (hear) and feel the difference.

I use the stage version V-Piano, which has no speakers (I have neighbor problems, so can't use speakers anyway). It has 28 different built-in piano sounds, which you can customize to your heart's content (see my V-Piano thread). The Grand version looks like a normal baby grand, has 2 extra presets, and marvellous speakers built into the cabinet that gives you a real illusion of sound from struck strings, but it's a bit bigger than an upright and via headphones the sound is the same as the stage version.

The V-Piano doesn't have a cabinet but is sleek and classy in appearance grin, but if you really want 'authentic' looks, it's probably not for you. For me, though I grew up with acoustics (and play almost exclusively classical), its advantages in playability (and unlike most DP users, it's for life for me, not something to be upgraded regularly) far outweigh any misgivings I had originally about its appearance.


Agreed 100%. If all you play is classical, there is no other Digital piano that offers what the V-Piano or V-Piano Grand can do.

Last edited by Kona_V-Piano; 06/01/12 06:45 AM.

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Re: Digital Pianos: Where to Start?
bennevis #1906413 06/01/12 07:13 AM
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Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by bennevis
If you're purely into classical and don't need any bells & whistles but want the closest DP to an acoustic in terms of response to touch, dynamics, resonances, 'feel', i.e. all those things that let you forget that you're not playing a mechanical instrument, you won't do any better than the...

AvantGrand.
.....not!
(In my very 'umble opinion, of course grin)


So there you have it. Opinions vary, which is why a serious buyer needs to do his own shopping and thinking. (I'm a former AvantGrand owner who currently owns a Roland, and I like both; while neither is perfect and each has relative advantages and disadvantages -- many of them discussed earlier in this thread -- they're both very good.)

Last edited by ClsscLib; 06/01/12 07:34 AM.

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Re: Digital Pianos: Where to Start?
ClsscLib #1906422 06/01/12 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by ClsscLib

So there you have it. Opinions vary, which is why a serious buyer needs to do his own shopping and thinking.


But the consensus is pretty easy: either O-Naipv or DnargTnava.

If you find a store to demo these two, you cover the top DP options.


Re: Digital Pianos: Where to Start?
cuguy #1906615 06/01/12 02:16 PM
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I would buy the Yamaha N1 or N2. Grand action, decent sound, excellent response and nice cabinetry.


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Re: Digital Pianos: Where to Start?
cuguy #1906617 06/01/12 02:26 PM
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If you want authentic Grand Piano touch, you can't go wrong with the Yamaha N series. Furthermore it will look great as furniture. However I'll say again that if you want a more acoustic like sounding experience with headphones, the V-Piano would fit the bill nicely. I would definately get aquainted with how all these models feel and sound while you play your favorite song. Whatever choice you make, I'm sure you'll be happy with it.


Roland V-Piano, Yamaha CLP990, Yamaha S90
Re: Digital Pianos: Where to Start?
cuguy #1906691 06/01/12 05:19 PM
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These pissing contests between the V and the AG have become the only threads I really enjoy. Seriously, when this subject isn't being stoked I usually go other places on the web for my entertainment. Kona, Alekkh, Bennevis and PV88 (did I miss anyone?) - thank you.


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Re: Digital Pianos: Where to Start?
cuguy #1906722 06/01/12 06:16 PM
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For what it's worth, there are some tremendous bargains on the AvantGrand pianos right now. Tomorrow I'm picking up an N3 at 50% off MSRP (plus 0% financing), and am thrilled with that as my choice. I looked hard at the Kawai CA93, and the Roland V-Grand, both of which I liked very much. But for the touch of the N3 (even if its sounds are inferior to the V-Grand, which perhaps they are) and the bargain price, that made the decision for me.

Last edited by NoticeofAppeal; 06/01/12 06:18 PM.

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Re: Digital Pianos: Where to Start?
36251 #1906821 06/01/12 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by 36251
These pissing contests between the V and the AG have become the only threads I really enjoy. Seriously, when this subject isn't being stoked I usually go other places on the web for my entertainment. Kona, Alekkh, Bennevis and PV88 (did I miss anyone?) - thank you.


Neither the OP nor anyone here has asked for your offtopic thoughts. What you are doing repeatedly in this forum is called trolling.

Respect the OP. Keep comments on the subject.



Re: Digital Pianos: Where to Start?
alekkh #1906844 06/01/12 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by alekkh
Originally Posted by 36251
These pissing contests between the V and the AG have become the only threads I really enjoy. Seriously, when this subject isn't being stoked I usually go other places on the web for my entertainment. Kona, Alekkh, Bennevis and PV88 (did I miss anyone?) - thank you.


Neither the OP nor anyone here has asked for your offtopic thoughts. What you are doing repeatedly in this forum is called trolling.

Respect the OP. Keep comments on the subject.


I prefer to stay out but you V people begin your diatribe force me to chime in. It's important and on topic that OP knows that your clan always turn the subject to the V being the best and OP might not have been of aware of this. I'm not trying change the subject. So OP until Roland makes V with real acoustic action then do yourself a favor and check out N series. Even if V sounds better as these people say; the action is still not as good as AG action - case closed if you have $10,000 to spend.

Last edited by 36251; 06/01/12 10:06 PM.

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Re: Digital Pianos: Where to Start?
cuguy #1906863 06/01/12 10:56 PM
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I was at a Kawai showroom looking at the CN43, but they had one model there that really caught my eye - the CS3...

It was smaller, sleeker, prettier.... unfortunately, I wanted the USB out to interface with a computer (learner).... if I already knew how to play the CS3 would have been on my short list (not to mention it was on sale for $2k)...


Re: Digital Pianos: Where to Start?
cuguy #1906867 06/01/12 11:02 PM
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Go Lobos!

The CS3 can still be connected to a computer relatively easily using a MIDI-to-USB cable, such as the one below.

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Cheers,
James
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Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.
Re: Digital Pianos: Where to Start?
36251 #1906882 06/02/12 12:06 AM
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Originally Posted by 36251
So OP until Roland makes V with real acoustic action then do yourself a favor and check out N series. Even if V sounds better as these people say; the action is still not as good as AG action - case closed if you have $10,000 to spend.


Same story here. I sat down at the V last week wanting to love it ... Went back and forth between an RX-3, Shigeru, CA93, and V. Could not stomach the Roland or Kawai DP options and knew the AG action was what I could live with.

I might do a V for our summer place, but not as a primary instrument.


AvantGrand N3
Re: Digital Pianos: Where to Start?
NoticeofAppeal #1906921 06/02/12 03:26 AM
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Originally Posted by NoticeofAppeal


Same story here. I sat down at the V last week wanting to love it ... Went back and forth between an RX-3, Shigeru, CA93, and V. Could not stomach the Roland or Kawai DP options and knew the AG action was what I could live with.


Hardly a fair comparison though. A digital piano will never have the presence that a decent grand has. Even though the AG has a grand action, it will still suffer badly in comparison to an RX or Shigeru. Not even close. The connection between action and sound is very important too. AGs are nice, but they aren't the same as playing a real piano. You'll have to play one to assess how far short they are.

Re: Digital Pianos: Where to Start?
NoticeofAppeal #1906967 06/02/12 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by NoticeofAppeal


Same story here. I sat down at the V last week wanting to love it ... Went back and forth between an RX-3, Shigeru, CA93, and V. Could not stomach the Roland or Kawai DP options and knew the AG action was what I could live with.

I might do a V for our summer place, but not as a primary instrument.


I wonder if it was V-Grand or V-Piano stage?

If it was stage, what speakers were used?

If it was V-Grand, which store was it that has V-Grand and AG in one place?
Could you please fill in these details? Thanks.

Re: Digital Pianos: Where to Start?
ando #1907053 06/02/12 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by ando


A digital piano will never have the presence that a decent grand has. Even though the AG has a grand action, it will still suffer badly in comparison to an RX or Shigeru. Not even close. The connection between action and sound is very important too. AGs are nice, but they aren't the same as playing a real piano. You'll have to play one to assess how far short they are.


As everyone here knows, I'm totally biased grin, but even so, I'd be quite happy to have any of the AGs as a practice instrument. (BTW, if you carefully read the fulsome praise of the classical pianists who endorse the AGs, none of them mention their use as performance instruments, only as practice instruments, whereas Roland actually introduced the V-Piano Grand to the world in a series of classical concerts in 24 cities in 21 countries last year). And if I already have regular access to a good grand (at least 6ft) and I don't have neighbor problems, the AG could well have been a serious contender for the V-Piano when I was traipsing around auditioning DPs two years ago.

But I wasn't looking for a practice instrument - I was looking for a single piano substitute that would satisfy me for years and years to come (unlike many other posters here who own multiple DPs or APs plus DPs, I only have space - and the money and inclination - for one), so I didn't have to go around looking for and playing and practising on rubbishy acoustics anymore like I'd been doing for decades previously. So, I was really looking for much, much more than an instrument with 'authentic' key action (not that the AG action is truly authentic either). Which was why the AGs were never serious contenders - using headphones, the only distinguishing factor in their favor over the CLP/CVP was their key action. (IMO, all the non-AG Yamaha DPs' key action feel totally artificial, unlike those of Kawai and Roland DPs). And personally, I found the AG keyweight to be on the heavy side, heavier than that of any acoustic grand - including the flagship Yamaha CFX concert grand - I've ever played (though I could still live with it, if that was the only drawback).

To be truthful, in 2010 I never expected to find a DP that would fulfil my requirements, but the V-Piano did, and more - I didn't even feel the need to play occasionally on well-prepped grands anymore, because the V gave me all the responsiveness and enjoyment in music-making that I wanted from a good piano.

But enough of my totally biased opinions grin: as I've said many times before, if you don't feel that real 'connection' and responsiveness when playing on the V that you don't get from other DPs, it really is a waste of money buying one. All you get is just a piano substitute - not even EP or rhythm or chord accompaniment. Not even a music rest on the V-Piano cry (though there's one on the V-P Grand, of course). Roland really focussed on getting just one thing right in the V, and for my money, they nailed it. It's a pianist's piano. Not a 'keyboard'. After over two years of playing around 4 hours/day on it (except for the several weeks a year that I spend fighting for my life in a blizzard up some mountain...), I love playing it more than ever.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Digital Pianos: Where to Start?
bennevis #1907266 06/02/12 04:14 PM
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Bennevis, while there are some people who clearly are biased or prejudiced about one instrument or another, I don't take your enthusiasm for anything like "bias" -- rather the opposite, I think. You thought very hard about what you wanted, surveyed the available choices, and made what was obviously the right choice for you.

Your post is a terrific testimonial for Roland. I really wish they'd hire you; they need someone who understands the product from a serious user's perspective.

Last edited by ClsscLib; 06/02/12 06:53 PM.

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Re: Digital Pianos: Where to Start?
Kawai James #1907276 06/02/12 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Kawai James


Fair enough, but not everyone is a Roland fan, or a fan of the Roland sound.

Given the choice, I'd take the wooden-key action of the CS9 or hybrid action of the N1 over that of the LX-15.


Doesn't that go without saying? Not everyone is a fan of the Yamaha or Kawai sound either. The OP will have to make his/her own mind up about that but he has asked for our opinions and mine is that the LX15 should be high up the list of auditions as it is much better than its competition.

I would take an LX15 over an N3, let alone an N1. Absolutely no contest IMO for solo piano classical music.


Re: Digital Pianos: Where to Start?
alekkh #1907385 06/02/12 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by ando
Hardly a fair comparison though. A digital piano will never have the presence that a decent grand has. Even though the AG has a grand action, it will still suffer badly in comparison to an RX or Shigeru. Not even close. The connection between action and sound is very important too. AGs are nice, but they aren't the same as playing a real piano. You'll have to play one to assess how far short they are.


Maybe not a fair comparison, but how else do you assess the action of a DP for silent playing? You have to compare DP against an acoustic that really does it for you. The RX-3 or little Shigeru is next on the list ... but for now, it's the AG and the action was the most important to me, at least.

Originally Posted by alekkh
I wonder if it was V-Grand or V-Piano stage?

If it was stage, what speakers were used?

If it was V-Grand, which store was it that has V-Grand and AG in one place?
Could you please fill in these details? Thanks.


It was V-Grand, and I had to go between stores to compare VG to AG. However, I picked up my N3 today and that dealer (~100 miles from my home) had both Roland and Yamaha digital grands on the floor. No Kawai at that dealer, though. It was Music City Pianos in Spokane, Washington, by the way.


AvantGrand N3
Re: Digital Pianos: Where to Start?
cuguy #1907397 06/02/12 10:32 PM
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Congratulations - I think you've made an excellent choice.

Cheers,
James
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Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.
Re: Digital Pianos: Where to Start?
NoticeofAppeal #1907471 06/03/12 03:31 AM
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Originally Posted by NoticeofAppeal


However, I picked up my N3 today and that dealer (~100 miles from my home) had both Roland and Yamaha digital grands on the floor. No Kawai at that dealer, though. It was Music City Pianos in Spokane, Washington, by the way.

Yes, congratulations. Sounds like the N3 action swung it for you, compared to the VPG action?

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