Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Pianist Corner wr and other Alkanists, Op. 13 No. 2 Key signature question

Why is Alkan's Op. 13 No. 2 in C sharp major instead of D flat major? Well, maybe that's not a question any of us could answer, but maybe it would be easier to read if it were in D flat major? Isn't there a Bach prelude and fugue that is printed in both D flat and C sharp (or D sharp and E flat, forget exactly)...

One advantage is that you don't have to think about which notes are sharp, just remember that all 7 of them are

Hahaha! I personally find D flat major easier to read than C sharp major, though. I am constantly thinking enharmonically while reading through and practicing (I'm currently learning this piece right now).

WTC Book 1; Prelude is in E flat Minor, fugue is in D sharp minor.

And Liszt rhapsody no 6 changes from D flat major to C sharp major!

I don't really understand why they do it. In the Liszt, I think it may be because he can use some double sharps where it would otherwise be natural, and it makes more sense that way or something.... in that case, it probably is easier to read in C sharp.

We've talked about this kind of thing before with Bach... and I've never known the answer.

In the WTC Bach uses C# major instead of Db major for both preludes and fugues. (Maybe Alkan was referencing the Bach?)

Also, in WTC II he uses D# minor for the prelude and fugue, but in WTC I he uses D# minor for the fugue and Eb minor for the prelude.

At least in that case, the two key signatures are equally complex (D# minor has 6 sharps; Eb minor has 6 flats). But in the C# major / Db major, I wonder what his reasoning was. Probably something theoretical or traditional.

By the way, one of the reasons 7 sharps is so hard is because of the increased frequency of double-sharps.

-J

It's because if it were written in D-flat, and he wanted modulate down by a major third for a long section that included a key signature change, it would have to be written in the even more absurd key of B double-flat major.

Without knowing the piece, what I can tell you is that C# major and Db major are felt by many (if not most) to have different 'flavors.' I certainly feel that they do.

And without even referring to the piece, I'll tell you my associations to the keys, and you tell me if it matches the piece:

C# major is friskier, more pungent.
Db major is more elegant, more peaceful.

Or, perhaps to put it more simple-mindedly but no less aptly:
Sharp is sharper.
Flat is flatter.

And BTW, if we forget for the moment about keyboard instruments and "well-tempered," and just talk about how the notes would be played by a string player or sung by a singer, C# would often if not usually truly be sharper, and Db flatter -- i.e. the pitch of C# would be a tiny bit higher -- although maybe not so much when the notes are the tonic (as here).

Well, listen to the piece and tell me if it's frisky and pugnent or if it's elegant and peaceful.

I agree with your assessment about keys having flavors, though. Sort of like Alkan's "Aime-Moi" being A flat minor instead of G# Minor or the Grand Duo Concertant being F# major instead of G# major. I believe flavor plays a huge role in those examples. But like I said, listen to this piece, because I don't think that's the case here.

And with your second point, Alkan used to play this piece sometimes along with a small group of muted strings, so they would probably be playing with a well-tempered tuning also.

wr's point makes sense, especially since Alkan was rather particular about that stuff, but I don't think the music theory police would shoot you if you modulated a diminished 4th instead of a major 3rd (Db to A instead of C# to A).

I think you are off your meds here. Enharmonic notes of different keys would change necessarily, but why for the same key?

Edit: You're right. At first I thought otherwise because the recording I heard wasn't representative. It was this:

Huh?
I really don't know what you mean. They're not the "same key," they're C# and Db -- but I gather you mean something other than what I can imagine.

Anyway, here's the thing: C#, when it resolves somewhere, usually resolves upward, and so a string player or singer would 'lean' it in that direction.
Db, when it resolves somewhere, usually resolves downward, and so the reverse applies.

You can take that to the bank, my dear Damon.

Actually, I think what you said is beyond lunatic. Since I know you won't let go of it, I'll stop discussing it...but I'm not going to the bank.

Well, think about it.

Cliff's Notes: It's not lunatic.

(As they say in one of the Seinfeld episodes, "I don't know sometimes....")

I meant that this piece isn't frisky and pungent, but instead it's elegant and peaceful.

Well, leading tones such as C# (like, if we're in D major) are slightly higher, because we do that all the time in choir, whereas if we're in C major and we're singing a Neapolitan chord or something, the D flat won't be very close to a D natural.

You're right.
Here's the thing: Before, the recording I clicked on was some stupid midi-type thing, which I didn't realize until just now when I re-checked it by listening to another recording.


Exactly, and thank you.

Damon, please take note.
Good rule of thumb: Don't be quick to think something is nuts just because you never thought of it before.

wait I thought "pungent" was for a smell, like "that's some pungent cheese"

haha but anyway, I vote for 'elegant and peaceful '

As you can see, I changed my mind and did also.

So, back to OSK's question, why is it in C-sharp?

Answer: I can't imagine, unless he's telling us that it shouldn't be quite so elegant and peaceful....

Let's take a look at the score and see if there are any clues, like expressive indications....(goes to look)

Mark, take note.

What OSK said has nothing to do with what you said.
Good rule of thumb: Don't be quick to think you've thought of something valid.

Damon: You are misunderstanding something here. What OSK said was exactly about what I had said.