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Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix #1903472
05/26/12 01:07 PM
05/26/12 01:07 PM
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Loren D Offline OP
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His method of repairing loose tuning pins by inserting corrugated cardboard, to be precise.

Now, I'm thinking.....what really is a valid reason as to why it wouldn't work? I understand that the cardboard will eventually disintegrate, but it will take many, many movements of the pin before that would happen. In other words, years of tunings.

Second....let's say it does disintegrate. It's still leaving the fiber in the hole between it and the pin.

I know it seems like an unorthodox repair that a lot of us just summarily dismissed, but when really thinking about it, I'm not sure I can come up with a real reason why it wouldn't work.

Many repairs we take for granted today were unorthodox at one time (CA glue in piano repair, for instance).

So.....?


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Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D] #1903478
05/26/12 01:16 PM
05/26/12 01:16 PM
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Grand Rapids Michigan
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Why not just replace the tuning pin with a size or two larger and be done with it forever? smile


Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.
Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D] #1903496
05/26/12 02:13 PM
05/26/12 02:13 PM
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Personally I wasn't questioning whether it works but why not just use CA glue or like Jerry said just put in an oversized pin. I guess if neither of those is an option (I don't have any oversized pins or CA glue) then it seems like an okay option. It certainly won't hurt anything will it?


"That Tuning Guy"
Scott Kerns
Lincoln, NE
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Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Jerry Groot RPT] #1903498
05/26/12 02:15 PM
05/26/12 02:15 PM
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Ranger, Texas
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Max (and many others) may not have ready access to various size tuning pins along with many other parts. So if using this method helps the piano stay in tune longer without a lot of expense, then I say great.

Not everyone has the advantage we do in the U.S. on being able to get parts.

Shoot, one time I tried those split metal shims to tighten tuning pins. Got a lot left too cause I didn't like the way they worked.


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Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D] #1903506
05/26/12 02:43 PM
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Loren D Offline OP
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Jerry and others, yes, other methods do work. But that's not in itself a reason to use a different method that might also work.

Oversize pins can cause more problems if the block is already weak or cracking.



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Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: That Guy] #1903508
05/26/12 02:49 PM
05/26/12 02:49 PM
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Nope! as soon there are 2or 3carboard shims, the
pano will desintegrates.

Originally Posted by That Guy
Personally I wasn't questioning whether it works but why not just use CA glue or like Jerry said just put in an oversized pin. I guess if neither of those is an option (I don't have any oversized pins or CA glue) then it seems like an okay option. It certainly won't hurt anything will it?


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I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D] #1903511
05/26/12 02:51 PM
05/26/12 02:51 PM
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Vancouver B. C. Canada
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I wonder if there ever will be a time when people are mindful of where this fellow lives and how people live there. It is not with the availability of riches we witness in the west by a long shot.

Max makes do with the tools, supplies, and the experience that he has. If I lived in that poverty stricken life I would probably be doing the same…………. Actually there is no probably about it.


Dan Silverwood
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Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Olek] #1903519
05/26/12 03:12 PM
05/26/12 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Kamin

Nope! as soon there are 2or 3carboard shims, the
pano will desintegrates.

Originally Posted by That Guy
Personally I wasn't questioning whether it works but why not just use CA glue or like Jerry said just put in an oversized pin. I guess if neither of those is an option (I don't have any oversized pins or CA glue) then it seems like an okay option. It certainly won't hurt anything will it?


Not necessarily. If a few pins need tightened and this method works, how is that different from any other method that works?


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Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D] #1903521
05/26/12 03:18 PM
05/26/12 03:18 PM
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Loren D Offline OP
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I'm just asking for a good reason NOT to use that method. I really can't think of one. Can anyone else?


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Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Olek] #1903531
05/26/12 03:40 PM
05/26/12 03:40 PM
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Europe
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Nope! as soon there are 2or 3carboard shims, the
pano will desintegrates.

Pure nonsens. The only thing that counts is the result.


Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D] #1903539
05/26/12 03:59 PM
05/26/12 03:59 PM
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I seem to remember it does not allow for a normal pin setting, or not for long.

And the piano disintegrates, may be after 3 or for of those cardboard are inserted. I heard of witnessing of some rare auto ignition occurrences, too.

Last edited by Kamin; 05/26/12 03:59 PM.

Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
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Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D] #1903571
05/26/12 05:13 PM
05/26/12 05:13 PM
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I agree Loren, I don't think it matters what you use. I've repaired a few loose pins in an old Steinway "B" with used pieces of sandpaper.

We might have a 102 uses for the business card.


"Imagine it in all its primatic colorings, its counterpart in our souls - our souls that are great pianos whose strings, of honey and of steel, the divisions of the rainbow set twanging, loosing on the air great novels of adventure!" - William Carlos Williams
Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Dave B] #1903586
05/26/12 05:47 PM
05/26/12 05:47 PM
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Yep, Dave! How many times have I shimmed a front rail with one? smile


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Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D] #1903669
05/26/12 09:58 PM
05/26/12 09:58 PM
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Quote
Max makes do with the tools, supplies, and the experience that he has. If I lived in that poverty stricken life I would probably be doing the same…………. Actually there is no probably about it.


Agreed. That was my point that he makes do with what he has and we should all be mindful of that.


"That Tuning Guy"
Scott Kerns
Lincoln, NE
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Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D] #1903670
05/26/12 09:59 PM
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Quote
I'm just asking for a good reason NOT to use that method. I really can't think of one. Can anyone else?


Nope.


"That Tuning Guy"
Scott Kerns
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D] #1903712
05/27/12 12:15 AM
05/27/12 12:15 AM
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Tennessee
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Tennessee
>>I'm just asking for a good reason NOT to use that method. I really can't think of one. Can anyone else?<<

Yes, I can think of several. A real strong reason is that the cardboard is less effective and durable than a variety of other materials that we tried.
An old traditional way is to plane a shaving of hardwood from a plank and insert that into the hole. Another is to use sandpaper, grit side away from the pin. A piece of brass, half the circumference of the hole was also superior to fiberboard or cardboard.
The value of the repair was determined after numerous pin movements. Everything was tight at first, but some of the materials loosened more quickly than others. The cardboard was the loosest of the bunch.
Regards,

Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Ed Foote] #1903715
05/27/12 12:25 AM
05/27/12 12:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Ed Foote
>>I'm just asking for a good reason NOT to use that method. I really can't think of one. Can anyone else?<<

Yes, I can think of several. A real strong reason is that the cardboard is less effective and durable than a variety of other materials that we tried.
An old traditional way is to plane a shaving of hardwood from a plank and insert that into the hole. Another is to use sandpaper, grit side away from the pin. A piece of brass, half the circumference of the hole was also superior to fiberboard or cardboard.
The value of the repair was determined after numerous pin movements. Everything was tight at first, but some of the materials loosened more quickly than others. The cardboard was the loosest of the bunch.
Regards,


but once instructed our Russian friend stick and praise to his superior method!
Shaves or hard wood are so difficult to find!
so, to me, the heck with it until better. .

One need to know how to set the pins before ascertain that a process is efficient or no.

Which side of the hole the brass sheet ? I would put it on the opposite side of the "bed" of the pin, but I dont know.
The advantage is that it is not to be replaced when changing a string, hence its use on historical instruments and harpsichords.

Last edited by Kamin; 05/27/12 05:58 AM.

Professional of the profession.
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I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D] #1903791
05/27/12 06:52 AM
05/27/12 06:52 AM
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Cardboard is A way to do a temporary quick fix, as is sandpaper, super glue (so it appears ) and veneer, but I find doing things like this take a darn site longer than just replacing with a over size wrestpin. If the plank has split however, nothing will work. wink


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Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Loren D] #1903827
05/27/12 09:31 AM
05/27/12 09:31 AM
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The whole point of using a narrow shim of hardwood veneer rather than one covering the complete circumference of the pin was to place it on one side of the pin, not front or back, in case the block was split or about to split, there would be no added pressure from a shim that would force the split further apart. I have known repairs like this last for years.
Walnut was prefered because it was possible to cut thinner veneers out of it.

This was regarded as the safest repair in the days of solid pinblocks. Laminated pinblocks changed all this but always consider the age of the piano and the likelihood of it having a solid block in choosing a repair method.

Last edited by rxd; 05/27/12 09:53 AM.

Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.


Re: Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix [Re: Ed Foote] #1903830
05/27/12 09:36 AM
05/27/12 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Ed Foote
The cardboard was the loosest of the bunch.

When friction between pin and wood hole is no longer enough to provide the necessary tension of the strings on the classical technology seeks to restore pin's wood hole or hammers pin of larger diameter (oversize), or a conclusion about the impossibility of restoring the piano
Thus, the pin can be, with some approximation, of course, be regarded as a classic bolt. And that can happen with a threaded connection, if the bolt is screwed into the nut, which has much lower strength material? It's had bad connection and poor friction .
I don't beats new pins (larger diameter).I am force the turning (old) pin into the seat (wood hole) while gradually screwing it in.
The most productive and durable (oddly enough) was use corrugated cardboard, which provides the required quality and the restoration takes place fairly quickly, with virtually no material costs without the risk of "disorder" of neighboring pins, which inevitably arises in the classic to hammering on pin. Depending on the compound, this material allows for multiple settings for a long time operation of the piano.

Respected masters technicians of my compliments, thank you discussing this issue. A special thank you to the topic mentioned my name. I would like this discuss has been constructive. I have repeatedly said that this is my way. I assure you that the Russian people wrote words of gratitude for my method. I am very embarrassed, but I have a sense of ownership with the owners of the piano in Belarus, Ukraine, Georgia, Slovakia, Russia and others, who own their own pianos repaired independently. They twist themselves the T-bars. I agree with the forum participants that the procedure does not always save any piano, but we would try to make this.
What's new maxim_tuner's advice?
1 Do not remove a string from with pin, when we twist off it
2 Do not hammer pin
3 The effectiveness of this method is that the additional friction itself does not work. We destroyed shim a screwed pin into pinblock . A shim destroyed in the process of this screwing the particles of cellulose and warmed the glue. A cellulose's particles is filled of a crack in the pinblock.
4 I am against use any glue
5 I am against any metal shims inserts
6 My YourTube Channel for simple laymen who sees, think and decide.
To be or not to be?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGk3dS6dKow

Last edited by Maximillyan; 05/27/12 09:37 AM.
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