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I have a Yamaha "Silent Piano" (an acoustic that can be shut off and turned into a digital with the flip of a switch). It has no speakers, the idea being if you don't need to play "Silently" (i.e., through headphones) then you'll play the real piano.

I have great headphones (Sennheiser HD650). The sound gets muffled through the phones, but only if I play multi-note chords. (Single lines sound fine.) I've tried other phones and other pianos with the same problem haunting me, so it's neither the phones nor a piano in need of repair.

An electronics expert asked me if I needed to have the volume switch near max in order to get reasonable volume through the Senneheier phones. I said yes. He said I probably need a headphone amp. I've been told these are cheap and will require a cable to connect to the piano that may not always be sold with the amp. I don't know how to proceed.

Anybody out there have advice about what amp to get, where to get the cable, etc., etc.? Thanks in advance.

This will work.
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/HP4/
It is a professional quality studio headphe distribution amp. Allows four sets of headphones to be plugged in at once.

You can find cheaper ones and certainly some cost a lot more. the HP4 is good enough or a small recording studio and has loads of power.

You'd need a TRS to TRS cable to connect this. The best plan is to CALL and order the above and ask for the right able. Unlike place like Amazon the outfit above will send you the right cable if you tel them what you are going to plug it into. The phones are staffed by people who know audio.

If you want to save about $100 you can Google "Cmoy" headphone amp. These are very popular with the audiophile crowd and are cheap too. Most people build their own but you can buy them on eBay too.

You are in Portland so you could pick up the PreSonus HP4 recommended by ChrisA (above) over at Guitar Center in Beaverton with an extra $15 off this weekend. It's in stock there.

http://www.guitarcenter.com/PreSonu...Amp-102226354-i1125342.gc?isku=103923504

Or for $50 this Live Wire Solutions HA04 4-Channel Headphone Amplifier is also in stock.

http://www.guitarcenter.com/Live-Wi...eadphone-Amplifier-103923504-i1372413.gc

I haven't used either, but I thought you would want to know a local place to buy if you want it right away and want to talk to someone in person at the store.

Looks like you'll also need a 1/4" stereo cable. You could get a good cable for cheap at PCH Cables in Hillsboro but it probably isn't worth the extra drive for one cable and they aren't open on weekends.

Audio Advisor has a nice line-up of headphone amps - here's a link:

Audio Advisor Headphone Amps

The Creek OBH-11 is a very nice unit, but there are many others to choose from...

SCHIIT(yes I know funny name)is a US company that designs and builds all their Amps themselves here in the US. Their least expensive Solid State amp is called the ASGAARD at $249.00 and has been reviewed multiple times as equal or better than most Headphone Amps costing more than $1000.00--And I can personally attest to that--

I have this Amp & also their LYR amp a tube amp @ $449.00 and both are phenomenal--

I also have the Sennheiser HD 650's, a pair of Audio Technica ATH M50's and a pair of AUDEZE LCD 2's (Planar Headphone)and with each of them the improvement of the sound of my Kawai MP10 thru Headphones is extraordinary versus using them directly from the MP10.

Also if you want a fantastic value in a Headphone the Audio Technica ATH M50 can't be beat at around $150.00 these sound great across the whole audio spectrum with all kinds of sources, DP's, IPODS, CD's etc-& all types of music, and is a very easy Headphone to drive.

My AUDEZE are $1000.00 and way overkill and pretty much need a good quality Amp to fully recognize their full potential and the ASGAARD does that-

Great Day!!

Jack

The more important question in my mind, where exactly will this be mounted? You'll want it where you can easily access it for several reasons.

I wouldn't expect to pay an arm and a leg for a headphone amp.

Two more amps to consider for the HD650:
1. The FiiO E9 (the forum won't allow me to link to the actual product page - probably because the link points to a script)
2. The kit amp O2 which I suppose is an advanced CMOY amp. Also available pre-assembled, e.g from JDSLabs

Greg.

First, thank you for your help!.

QUESTION: What's a "TRS to TRS" cable?

If it helps you answer that question in a way it'll be understood . . .

The piano has an 1/8th" AUX OUT outlet, a MIDI OUT outlet, and a USB port, though the place to plug in headphones directly (without an amp) consists of a couple of 1/4" headphone outlets. I'm a Luddite, don't understand these things, and therefore any answer needs to be as though you're talking to someone completely unfamiliar with all this if I'm to understand it.

Thanks again!

Great! Thanks! I'll call them tomorrow and see if they have cables usable with my piano. (The headphones aren't a problem because the have both 1/8" and 1/4" capability.) They're open 11-6 on Sundays so this should work. Thanks again.

About the "arm and a leg" it sounds like many of them are cheap and there appears to be no reason at all to pay more than $130 and potentially even less than that!

About where it'll go, frankly, I don't know yet. This may depend on the length of the cables. The Silent Piano is a hybrid, so part of it is an acoustic 5'8" beautiful grand that shows itself off in the living room. Sticking a little box with cables on the floor won't be too cool, but it might be necessary. On the other hand, headphone cables are whopping 9' long, so that may allow a bunch of possibilities to hide the little box someplace where it'll be less of an eyesore. I'm glad you raised the issue, as it'll have me thinking before I buy a cable to go between the digital component of the piano and the amp. Thank you.

Thanks for your advice, Jack. Question: Obviously, with a headphone amp, the headphones will be plugged into the amp and no longer into the piano. Also, the amp presumably gets powered up by plugging into the wall. How does the amp attach to the piano, or said differently, where does it plug in? There are endless ports and I don't understand these things: USB, MIDI OUT, AUX OUT, and of course HEADPHONES. Thanks in advance for a reply.

Hmm. Are you saying every combination of phones and DPs you've tried give you this same trouble?

If so, I don't think a headphone amp will change anything. The trouble is either between your ears or with the DPs (more likely - I do second or third the HP4 on the off chance it might help).

jivemutha-normally you would have line outs on your piano which would connect to the Amp-if not you could use a 1/4" TRS(this provides stereo out) from your Headphone out jack to the AMP--

Radio Shack & other places would have the adapters for this type of cable usually 1/4" TRS to Left/Right RCA connectors

Jack

I'd mount the unit on the underside of the piano. I have two electric outlets and a bunch of cables neatly running on the underside of my N3. On an acoustic you have a lot of wood that you can drill into and not affect the sound board in the slightest - those thick beams can be easily used. Also consider using those stick on cable guides to run cables neatly under the piano. (A friend of mine in the US sent me $30 worth of cable management thingys.)

I'm sitting next to my N3 as I type this and I can't see anything.

I have 3 phones and HD650 is the one that sounds least good on my MP10. Too much bass in that one. Muffled.
The AKG K240 is better.
But the Beyerdynamic DT250 is very good. Not muffled at all. Clear bass register. My favorite.

HD650 is an open design and that gives a bigger bass. (they say..)
The AKG is half open. Less bass.
The Beyer is closed. Least bass.

The fact you have tried other phones with the same result as the Senn 650... hmm
Was one of the other phones a closed design? If not, maybe try that first.

Hope this helps.

Thanks, all, for your help and advice. I bought a "Livewire Solutions HA-04" headphone amp as per the suggestion of someone above. Of course one result is that the volue switch on the digital component of the piano then could be turned down considerably and there'd still be enough volume. As for the fuzzy sound with multiple note chords, it's better but not gone. At this point I think I need to live with it.

As for the limitiations of the Sennheiser phones themselves, I'm not an audiophile and for those of us who are not, I think the general sense is these phones are plenty good enough for my mundane sensitivities.

As to the question, have I listened through enough different phones to know they're not the problem, I think the answer is yes. As to the question, have I listened to enough digital pianos, the only issue is the Yamaha technology. All I wanted to do was ascertain that there was no technical problem in my particular piano. Therefore, I've only played on one other, also a Yamaha, of course, and the problem existed.

One person said maybe it was my ears. I supposed the only way for me to rule that out would be to have others listen through the phones to the different quality of single our double lines (nice and clear) and big chords (a little fuzzy). If others don't hear it, then you're right==it must be me. (I haven't tried that yet.)

About mounting the amp under the piano--thanks for the idea. I'll do some looking under there.

Bottom line: by improving the phones and adding the amp, it's gotten better but the problem isn't totally gone. My best solutions now are acceptance of the existing sound AND trying to play more at times when turning on the acoustic component of the Silent Piano can be done without pissing off the neighbors) who so far have all been great ("We just love to hear you play!"). After all, I'm guessing I paid less than $3000 for the digital component and more than $23000 for the acoustic component (5'8" C2 grand). And . . . even though I'm in the digital forum I've got to confess I much prefer the sound of the acoustic. Well, compadres, we've done all that can be done. Thanks again!

Actually you haven't come close to doing all that can be done. Whatever sound you are getting from the Yamaha silent piano function is dependent on the digital piano system Yamaha included. It's anyone's guess what it might be equivalent to in terms of their other strictly digital pianos. I can't find a lot of information about their silent piano systems anywhere on line. But it's nearly a certainty (IMO from knowing a little about the sound of Yamaha digital pianos) that a software based virtual piano would sound much better. And then you could have the best of both worlds, acoustic and digital.

So you have a laptop computer (or other computer in the vicinity) you could feed the MIDI output of your Yamaha to a software virtual piano. (You could use a tiny Mac-mini tucked away out of sight without a keyboard or monitor - set up to your liking from a laptop or other computer, or connect a monitor/wireless keyboard/mouse only when needed for set up.) You could take the headphone output from the computer, although PCs are not known for their high quality analog output, so you might want to connect the digital audio from the computer to an audio receiver if you have one nearby and take the headphone output from it.

So depending on what you already have in the house (laptop, computer, audio receiver, etc) you could have state-of-the-art digital virtual piano sound with a real grand piano action for as little as $150-$300. It seems like the best of both worlds if you are forced to use headphones to play your Yamaha very often.

That is slightly similar to my situation. In just a couple of weeks I'm going to embark on buying an acoustic piano for my home, but I've grown to really enjoy the variety of virtual pianos and other software virtual instruments that I have at my fingertips, and the many features of digital pianos and virtual instruments in general. I don't want to give that up, but I don't have room in my living room for both an acoustic grand and my present digital mini-grand (CVP-409GP). So one option that I will be looking at is a Yamaha silent piano (probably a C3) so I can also use it with software virtual pianos and other virtual instruments, etc. I only use headphones probably less than 5% of the time, so in my case I will be using external speakers and audio system, etc.

No there is more to do....

Try this experiment. Listen to a well recored solo CD using your new headphones and amp. Your piano can sound up to that good. Do your best CDs sound better then your silent piano? If so then the "weal link" is the digital sound engine inside the Yamaha piano. It is actually easy to upgrade it. Did you read the thread here about NI's new piano sample? Got something like that and run it on a little Apple "mini" with a decent audio interface. A large, state of the art piano sample like that will completely blow away the sound quality of the Yamaha internal engine. It's like night and day.

Of course what I'm hearing is dependent on Yamaha's technology. In my case, what other digital pianos can do is not relevant because the main reason for getting this piano was for the acoustic component--it's not like I can replace what I have for a few thousand bucks with another brand.



Yamaha is good at obscuring what they sell. Try their website (www.yamaha.com) when attempting to compare the merits of one acoustic piano with another, for example.

I'm a Luddite. I have no idea how to find/compare /download/use "software base virtual piano." Thus, for me to explore it, I'd need to find someone who knows more than I do. Maybe my computer repair guy? Maybe the places in town that sell digital pianos? Any suggestions about how I might go about finding help? Without it I won't be able to follow up on your suggestion, I'm afraid.



I have a laptop. However, again, none of this will help me directly, though I can show what you've written to someone who will be able to put these pieces together, hopefully.


I'm missing something, I think. Why would you want external speakers if you had a real C3? Ain't no digital piano on planet earth gonna sound half as good as a real C3, and the C3 component of the C3SG of which you speak is indeed 100% a real C3. Clearly you know a lot about the digital technology and I know nothing, but it might be useful to hear that the Silent Pianos have few bells and whistles besides being able to record, play back, and sound like a few other instruments. Silent pianos are mostly designed for people who do not like digitals and are forced by circumstance to play through headphones for a variety of reasons, most typically to not disturb neighbors. (They're also great for insomniacs.)

If I misunderstood your situation, then I apologize. I thought you said you were listening with headphones quite a bit because of neighbors, hours, etc. You've spent so much on your new piano, there is no reason to have the headphone listening be anything but a great experience too if you are going to use them very often. You can upgrade that experience for a couple hundred dollars or less, by using software-based piano's in place of the digital piano function built into your silent piano system.



Since I wrote the original reply to you I've found that the Yamaha silent system has AWM stereo sampling (about 2-generations behind their current digitals I believe) and 32-note polyphony for instance, whereas even their inexpensive digital pianos have 128 note stereo polyphony. So I suspect the silent system digital piano is pretty limited in Yamaha digital piano quality terms.



You simply have to connect the MIDI output to your laptop computer. You would need an inexpensive MIDI to USB converter cable to do that. You then run piano software on the laptop (I would recommend the Galaxy Vintage D Steinway for about $150, or the Ivory II Pianos which include a Steinway D, Yamaha C7, and Bosey for about $325). As I mentioned before, you can connect your headphones to a headphone output of your laptop, or better connect the digital audio output of the laptop to your stereo receiver (assuming you have a music system in the room) and then connect your headphones to the stereo receiver. You could get all the help you need right here on this forum, or from the guys at Guitar Center, or someone at Classic Pianos (they sell digital pianos too). The point was, that you can replace the digital piano sound of the Yamaha silent system with state-of-the-art digital piano sound for just a couple hundred dollars.

I only mentioned this at all because you said you still weren't satisfied with the sound you were getting from your headphones and imagined you couldn't do anything about it. But you can and inexpensively.


Like I said, I have almost no interest in using headphones. But I enjoy doing a few things with my digital pianos that I would miss with an entirely acoustic piano. Hence, I would use the silent system just to get a MIDI output from the C3. (A friend of mine bought a new Steinway a few years back and had it equipped with MIDI output for the same reason.) That would allow me to record the MIDI output of my playing, add strings and other instrument accompaniment to my acoustic playing, and so forth. Plus I think it would still be interesting to compare (and use) software-based digital pianos directly to the acoustic piano sound. I'm a little concerned about losing the variety of piano sounds I can have now by going to a single acoustic piano. I've already felt that limitation while auditioning several acoustic grands, and not wanting to settle on the particular characteristic sound of only one of them.