Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Digital Pianos - Electronic Pianos - Synths & Keyboards Good PA System for jazz piano combo gigs

Direct interface boxes--DI boxes are not needed if you are taking the "line out" of the DP right to the "line in" jack on a powered speaker. However, put more powered devices into the "chain" and gremlins seem to appear, like a 60 Hz hum you can't get rid of. If you are going into the mixing board of the "house" PA system, the transformers in the DI box isolate unwanted sounds and take care of impedance match issues. The Radial branded boxes are considered very good, the duplex box Dave Ferris likes is dual, so it handles both L & R outs of your DP (I'm about to order one of these to replace my cheap DI).

All,

Okay, I've decided to pull the trigger an order a pair of K8's plus a Yamaha MG102c mixer. Again, we're doing jazz, not rock, I don't need the volume of a K12. I also play pretty small venues, where the crowd is close up, and the K8's have the widest dispersion pattern, whereas K10 and K12 project in a narrower "beam". I know there's another school of thought about the EV ZXa1 but I'm going with K8. I only have the one piano so I don't think I need the direct box.

I will keep you posted!

-- Dave (another dave!)

Ideally you could find a store that had the ZXa1 and the K8. Or order both from a mail-order place with a good return policy, and keep the one you like better. To me, the only reasons to choose a K8 over the ZXa1 are for increased volume or the convenience of its multiple inputs. If volume isn't an issue and all you have is a the one keyboard, I would be very surprised if you didn't think the EV sounded better for piano. Plus it's cheaper and lighter, and has better bass (down 3 dB at 60 Hz, vs down 6 db at 66 Hz; down 10 db at 48 Hz vs down 10 dB at 61). It's bass response is actually more like the K12 (albeit at quieter volume). And yes, pianos do go that low (and lower).

BTW, the ZXa1 is available in two dispersion patterns, The ZXa1-100 is 100 degree conical, basically the same as the K8's 105.

I don't need the increase volume, nor the multiple inputs. Now I am second-guessing myself. I'm going to take your advice, see if I can do an A/B test.

I think it was voxpops that turned me on to ProAudio Start who has the Zxa1's for $400.

http://www.proaudiostar.com/ev-electro-voice-zxa1.html

I got the EV ZXA1 for jazz. Sounds great. I never did an A/B test with a QSC but considering the EV was cheaper, it was the better deal. So much power for such a small speaker. I have two now and use it with the A&H ZED 10FX mixer.

Jazzwee, do you have a pair, or just one?

Okay, I went to the music store and did an A/B test between the EV ZXA1 and the QSC K8. After an hour of toggling back and forth, I ended up preferring the K8! I could definitely hear that the ZXA1 was flatter, more mid-range, lacking the bass, but somehow the K8's sounded slightly more pleasing to the ear. I bought a pair. I have to say, these things sound phenomenal with actual music pumping through them. Even playing my Jamey Aebersold play-along CD's through these things sounds like a full band backing me. And as a nice surprise, the Fender Rhodes electric piano patch sounded REALLY good. I also learned that no speaker or amplifier sounds as good coming from behind, which is where it needs to come from in order for both me and the crowd to hear these. I wish I could selfishly use these as monitors!

The QSC is louder, and people tend to prefer whichever speaker is louder, so if you didn't match the level of the two, maybe that's why you liked the QSC better even while noticing that the EV sounded flatter? Also, normally (at the same level) the EV should give you deeper bass, unless maybe the QSC's "Deep" circuit was engaged (a switch on the back, that manipulates the signal for more bass).


If you ever do need to get a speaker like this for monitor use, note that the EV is shaped so you can easily use it as a floor wedge, while the K8 is not (though the larger QSCs are).

How do the ZXA1 & QSC K8's of the world compare to the Yamaha Stagepas 400i, etc. or even the Roland BA 330 regarding portability versus sound quality for digital piano (Casio PX5S)? I may even have to schlep a system on the NYC subway, and the "one piece" aspect of the Yamaha, etc. (JBL, Fender and Behringer have similar, competing systems) and low weight are attractive. In a small venue, aren't the powered speakers overkill? In some venues, there are (lousy) uprights that I have to talk my way out of using. The subway aspect is in the future; currently, I have a car here in sunny suburban Detroit. Suggestions? Thanks.

What I've read indicates a good set of PA speakers or the Spacestation are the preferred keyboard amplification options.

There's 155 pages of comments on the Spacestation on this thread:
http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbth...ad_s_up_SpaceStation_keyboar#Post2602284

Maybe the PA setup for best overall sound and versatility for the band, but the Spacestation for portability and ease of use just for yourself?

On the ZXA1:

It sounds very good. With an 8" woofer, and weighing around 20 lbs, it's fine for a "small venue". If you're too loud, just turn down the volume. I would trust it for up to 100 people.

IMHO, there's no such thing as "overkill" for amp/speaker power. I subscribe to the religion that a high-powered system, run at low power, sounds perfectly OK. Put QSC K10's in your living room, they'll be OK.

Note that there are two versions of the ZXA1. One has a tweeter covering 90 degrees by 45 degrees (just right for a stage monitor pointed back at you). The tweeter can be rotated 90 degrees in the enclosure, so when the ZXA1 on a stand, vertical, it gives you 90 degrees horizontal by 45 degrees vertical -- good as a PA speaker, pointing into the crowd. The other version has either 110 degrees, or 100 degrees (I forget which), in both horizontal and vertical directions -- better as a PA speaker, not so good as a stage monitor.

The _total weight_ of the Yamaha Stagepas 400i is 40 lbs, so you won't want to carry it very far. The mixer is nice, but limited (e.g. no outboard effects or EQ, limited tone controls). IMHO the Yamaha also sounds very good.

We've been using a Fender-made Bose-lookalike (Fender "Event" ??) in my chant band. It gives nice clean sound, but it's not easily portable.

If you're getting muddy piano sound, you might be over-driving your existing system. I suppose the easiest way to find out is to rent something with two or three times the power, and see if it sounds better. [You get some funny inter-modulation effects if you're running several instruments through the same speaker. The IM distortion gets smaller, as you increase the speaker diameter and decrease its excursion. IMHO.]

PS -- Edit -- I got my ZXA1 on the recommendation of "JazzWee", who hangs out in the "Piano-Nonclassical" forum. You might ask him for an opinion, he's got way more experience than I do.

A recent thread on the EVs on the KC forum :
http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbth..._EV_ZXA1_for_piano_PA_role_i#Post2774662

Like I posted in the thread, those EVs were the best I'd heard specifically for piano a few years back. If I were starting out looking for good sound, I would begin there. Also like I said, the Yamaha DXRs sounded pretty good (with a Motif XF piano in the GC) the one time I heard them

It's possible there is something newer that's come out that might sound better but I have my doubts. It seems the trend is towards LOUDER and more BASS, then tone and clarity.

I have to mention I tried the popular Spacestaion for about a month on different gigs, in varying size spaces, with my CP4. While the convenience factor was great - two cords for stereo and ac power cord - the sound was too much of a compromise from what I'm used to. Specifically in the area of clarity, tone and lack of detail while playing jazz. However I realize I'm in the minority on this. Many people love the SS, I just wasn't one of them. I felt lucky to sell it to a fellow KC forum member after 4 weeks.

I also have to mention regarding the SS amp- the Nord Fazioli/Italian sample on the Nord Piano 2 fared much better in the area of clarity then the CFX sample of the CP4 fwiw. It had me thinking of revisiting the Nord again (after 4 years use) for a minute but I didn't want to revert back to the less then ideal Fatar action, after a year with the Yamaha.

Subway ? Hmm, hard call. I think I'd still go with one ZXA-1 or DXR8 in mono over the SS, or the Yamaha Stagepass. Even though I don't know how well the Casio sounds in mono.

Dave, do you mean this:?

http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/newbay/kb_201406/index.php?startid=60

Acoustic Image also offers an integrated amp for $600 less:

http://www.soundpure.com/p/acoustic-image-coda-series-4plus-2-channel-combo-amplifier/8176;jsessionid=8CBE98DE3621C2D58D1E185DD546A17C

I also need at lest one microphone input (preferably two) for saxophone.

Anything 25 pounds or less is transportable on a subway with a cart. I busked all over LA (including in Glendale) with a Samson XP40iW (for saxophone, no piano) in 2014. The Samson sounds dreadful with either of my digital pianos (Kawai MP11, which stays at home) and the Casio PX5S, whose mono sample is just OK. If the Yamaha CP4 would have weighed and cost less, I would have bought it instead (but, perhaps because of the lack of sympathetic string resonance), I didn't feel the CP4 piano sample was much better. The action is great, though.

Gigging on piano is new to me (not saxophone, I've been gigging on that since the mid 1970's). I'm uncertain about the stereo issue with digital piano samples. They sound great through headphones, but in an audience situation (I think AnotherScott pointed this out), the stereo triangle only covers a portion of the audience. Assuming two of the EV or QSC, won't people on either side of the stage only hear roughly half of the sample?

As to using the EV or QSC, I see you have some really happening preamps as well. What would you recommend?

The link I posted was referring to the thread on the EV ZXA1s on the Keyboard Corner Forum. Your link is a Keyboard magazine review of the Acoustic Image amp.

I haven't heard the newest AI Ten2 amp but I'd guess it would be very good. I did play through the Corus a long time ago with a Roland RD700GX and it had good tone and clarity. If the Ten2, or any of their amps, were in your budget, I'd give them a listen. Especially considering they have a trial period. Fwiw, I find this site the best for comparing the different AI models.
http://www.gollihurmusic.com/manufacturer/2-ACOUSTIC_IMAGE.html

Regarding stereo vs mono live -- yes, the audience will be hard pressed to hear the stereo spread of the piano. Most players prefer the stereo imaging for the player experience. Basically we are doing it for ourselves... Personally for me, it adds to the less harsh, grating and often brittle sound that is common with almost all digital pianos live. There's a sense of more space and sustain as well as opposed to a one speaker mono setup.

It is of course more of a hassle - the schlep of 2 speaker cabs, 2 ac cords to plug in. And a pair of pre amp/patch cords to hook up ,along with 2 instrument cords. Oh yeah forgot the pair of speaker cords.

For me it's worth it though. On the other hand, when space is limited or the load in is a real pia, I do run mono for simplicity sake. The CP4 has the best mono patch I've ever heard in a digital piano. The Nord is second fwiw.

Regarding preamps-- most of those active speakers today have dual inputs - both mic & line on them, where you could probably get by without a pre. Something like an A&H Zed10 Fx would give you more flexibility with gain staging and any tonal adjustments. But it's another piece of gear to futz with.

The JMK Audio JM-110 is a studio grade di/pre. It would be hard to top sonically , but it's only line level , no mic inputs. The APB is a notch below the JMK but still 2 notches up from the usual Yamaha/Mackie/A&H suspects. Again though, you have to rack it and it's another piece of gear.

If you can get by with mono and have the budget , I would try the Acoustic Image and maybe if possible , A/B with the ZXA1, DXR8 and QSC8 going direct into the actives. The QSC I'm not a fan of for piano though.

Basically as you can tell, I'm really picky. I know a lot of great players that use *whatever works* and don't give all this a second thought. If I were schlepping around NYC, I'd probably have to change my ways as well to the easiest and simplest set up.

I emailed Gollihurmusic for recommendations. The Acoustic Image "Coda" is only 23 pounds. The "Ten2" is 32 pounds - two woofers? Far out..... Either one would cost as much (slightly more, actually) than two ZXA1 speakers and a decent mixer, but would be a lot more subway-friendly - and NYC subways are a lot more crowded and difficult to navigate than the LA ones, with difficult to pass through turnstiles (SNL did a good send up of this on Hillary's NYC trip). I think a lot of NYC players just go through the house PA if there is one (or use the house acoustic if there is one). Here in sunny Detroit, though, it's drive to the gig and bring your own PA.

I post a synopsis of their response.

When you used the Corus, did you use the mono patch of the Roland RD700GX?

Somewhat off topic, do you ever use a sampled or modeled piano with laptop on gigs (e.g., Ivory, Pianoteq)? Do they have better mono implementations than digital pianos?

Here's some info from Gollihurmusic:

Hi! The Acoustic Image products are not stereo. The multi-channel units (most of them) have a pair of identical channels with access to the onboard effects, and then they are blended to the mono amplifier and output.

They're full range amps, not designed for any specific instrument, but rather for transparent sound, so I see no reason why it wouldn't work with a sax, particularly if you have a mic. I've sold AI amps to players of all sorts of instruments; keyboard, piano, organ, mandolin, guitar, cuatro, violin, cello... and so on.

They have 2 XLR and 2 1/4 inputs; while it's designed to be used as a "one or the other" sort of use, they are separately buffered, so you can actually use all four simultaneously. The downside is that each pair of XLR/phono inputs share the same EQ and input/output sections, so you'll have to compromise on some of those settings. Though the keyboard has its own active volume control, so you'll be able to use that to adjust the blend.

Alternatively, you can also input the keyboard on one of the effects returns, which would also allow you to blend it in but not have to share the EQ settings between the keyboard and other instrument.

(end of Gollihurmusic's info)

I watched PianoManChuck's Moo Tube video regarding the stereo-mono issue when playing live. He recommends mono and describes how to achieve that.

My goal for the proposed system is essentially solo piano gigs, with some saxophone. With a band, I've normally played with (somebody else's - usually the pianist's ) PA, which is usually two speakers. So, using a single-point, mono system would be different for me...

Assuming mono is acceptable, what are everybody's thoughts on the Bose (and similar) systems?

Hi, IMHO EV speakers are amazing, but in some situations i prefer the powerful and cristal clear sound of FBT Promaxx 14A with the bigger B&C horn drivers for an unmatched sonic piano quality reproduction in all the sound spectrum. Cheers!.

Not quite sure which Bose you mean, but for gigs like this I use a Bose L1 (model I) with one bass unit that I bought used for about $1200, including cases. Never regretted it. Very easy set up, very few cables, the line array design fills a large room, and seems to resist feedback despite the fact that you put it behind you and use it for monitoring.

If you don't need much eq or reverb, you can run two XLRs and two 1/4" jacks directly into it. I run my Kawai ES8 into one of the 1/4s, then a vocal and an instrument mic into the XLRs.

The two XLR inputs are limited to a "Hi - Mid - Lo" set of EQ knobs, plus some hard-wired presets for different kinds of sounds. These are set using a remote on a long cable, which I stick with velcro to my piano stand.

The 1/4 inputs only have a volume (gain?) knob, but that works fine for my piano.

When we work with a bassist, she uses her own amp and doesn't run through the L1.

The model II is more expensive, but has better mixing capability with four channels and eq, effects, and presets.

The cheaper "Compact" model doesn't have much punch at the low end for piano, but would likely work for sax, and may be good enough for your gigs. (I tried them all side by side at a Guitar Center, and the piano sounded best on the full L1 with a bass unit). I play some classical gigs, so I do want a good "real" piano sound.

When I need more fancy, I have a small Mackie Onyx 1220 mixing board that I can use to run four channels of XLR, and have better control over EQ. Then that plugs into the L1. I'm still lacking reverb and other effects, but so far that hasn't been an issue where I've played, which is restaurants, wedding dances, etc.

Any gig that the Bose L1 won't handle is a gig where I'd rather have someone else doing sound, thank you very much.

I was thinking of the Bose L1. Am I correct that the bass unit is mandatory for piano?

The L1 Compact itself is 30 pounds, and the bass unit is another 26.

Do you have the Tonematch mixer?

It's mono, so do you miss the stereo sample on your Kawai? I really liked that ES8 at the store but ended up with the Casio PX6S for gigs and the fantastic Kawai MP11 for home. I wish it weighed 24 pounds like the Casio!