Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Pianist Corner Quick question. 1 4 or 1 5 for black key octaves

Do you use 1 4 or 1 5 for octaves on black keys on rapid octaves passages. Thanks in advance.

you can use either. If yoy want a more legato sound use 1 4 on black and 1 5 white

Varies, depending on.....I don't know what.

In the contrary-motion-both-hands-octaves passages of Chopin's Fantaisie in F minor, I had trouble getting the octaves consistently until I arrived at using mostly 4 with the L.H. and 5 with the R.H. Not sure why, or if I could extract any principle that I could apply generally.

It seems that people generally argue one or the other. At least for me, it varies and it depends.

I'm with Mark on this one. I usually go 1-4, but in some special circumstances, I do 1-5. One thing I can think of is: SOMETIMES in really fast passages, it's easier to play faster not switching 4-5. But there may be other times when I stay on 1-5... I think I always go 1-4 when I'm playing a slower, more melodic passage.

Thanks guys. I'll try use 1 4 (it's for rapid double octaves). I think it's easier to switch to 1 5 if that doesn't work than the reverse.

Either. Both. Depending. And sometimes 3 gets involved, too, e.g., in the LH octave section in Chopin's op. 53 polonaise.

I don't still follow all the tenants of my Taubman training from a couple years back, but I do almost always play octaves 1-5, and achieve legato by methods other than finger connecting. I find it liberating; I find that 1-4 gives the hand a slight twist that adds unwanted tension. I do use 1-4 occasionally still.

I have a concert pianist friend who had been complaining to me about the octaves in the Chopin op.53 Polonaise. She had played this piece for decades, but for some reason she was now starting to get fatigued part-way through the section. She was using a combination of 1-5 and 1-4 (and maybe a 1-3), connecting all the top notes. I recommended she switch to all 1-5, and she now swears by that fingering; she said that after an awkward couple days, the section is easy again. A rare case of problem solved.

-Jason

Depends on stretch. 13 for me is out of the question, but 14 feels very comfortable, and I use it on white keys if I'm coming off black sometimes (rarely of course).

Smaller handed people should stick to 15 if it's too uncomfortable. Of course, part of the uncomfortableness may come from lack of 4th finger strength though, so...

I almost always use a legato fingering for octaves where I can, sometimes including 13. I may occasionally use 5s where the volume is more important than the legato.

I believe Earl Wild recommended using only 1-5 in his autobiography.

And Horowitz used 14. There are good arguments for both sides probably. I've had a very legato-centric training.

Ok, stupid question (or is there no such thing as a stupid question?) since I have not worked on as much octaves as I should have by now. Do you find the distance between a black key octave and a white key octave to be slightly different? Last time I was working on octaves, I found it was easier to keep 14 for black keys and 15 for white keys otherwise I'd miss one of the notes on the white key octave.

Did you know.....some people supposedly also use 2 -- i.3. 2,3,4,5.

I wouldn't recommend 2 or 3 for very many people.


I'm going to try that.
I've never used anything except 4, because I learned the piece years ago when I was in the habit of (almost) always using 4 -- and I've always had at least a little trouble with it (more of course when I haven't been practicing it) but never thought of changing the fingering, because -- y'know, sometimes you just never think of changing something if you've always done it a certain way....



It's an illusion.

Although....since the white keys are wider, depending on where you hit each white key you can 'make' the distance between them either less or more than the distance between the black keys, but aside from that, obviously the distances are the same).

Maybe that's part of what's making it feel like what you're saying, maybe other things. But I think what you're talking about has nothing to do with different distances.

Depends. I usually use 1-4 on black keys and sometimes 1-3 if there are two consecutive black key octaves. On the other hand, if I am playing close to the body (closer to middle C) I'll switch to all 1-5 because 1-4 will give an uncomfortable twist at a certain point.

I learned the Polonaise years ago using 5 (when I was in the habit of almost always using 5) and now that I've revisited the piece I've switched to 4 on the black keys - which works SO MUCH better for me !!!!

Go figure....



Edit: I tried it.
Verdict: It's much less fatiguing using all 5's -- like, not at all -- but harder to play as fast.

I'm going to switch to all 5's, and work on getting it up to the same speed.

(Thanks, Jason!!)

It's not a black and white answer (pun intended). It really depends on many factors (for me).

It's not the distance that's different, it's the fact that the black keys sit higher than the white keys. That means you can play octaves on the blacks by using the inner edges of the keys. If you do that on the whites, you risk playing the neighbouring notes and thereby messing up your octaves with additional notes. So you are right in your observation that it's easier to achieve the stretch on the blacks, but not in your reason why. It's not about the distance, it's just about the ease in avoiding the neighbouring notes.

Just to clarify then, do you keep the same stretch on the black keys as on the white keys? (Actually, I found I play the outer edges of the black keys, not the inner edges and thus am stretching too far.)

I'm more referring to the fact that the black keys are very forgiving to where on the key you press (whether it's inside or outside edge), whereas the white keys are not. People with smaller hands struggle to play octaves on white keys using 1-4, but have no trouble on the blacks. 1-5 is most preferred on the whites. So it suits the legato fingering for most people.

I tend to find that if you have to do very rapid octaves, keeping 1-5 and using a set span width is far more reliable than trying to throw in a 1-4 on the black keys. I find that inherently risky once the tempo gets beyond a certain point. The 1-4/1-5 mix is suitable for slower/legato purposes.