2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.9 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

Who's Online Now
56 registered members (Dieci990, AB99, 36251, David B, BachToTheFuture, ChrisGoesPiano, Carey, 14 invisible), 398 guests, and 510 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
American music 1600s - 1800s (?) #1893053 05/07/12 04:06 PM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 447
N
nocturne152 Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
N
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 447
There area we know to be "New York City" was founded in 1628 and the USA became a country in 1776. Obviously there were Europeans living there between those two dates and after the latter date. As far as I know, there are no classical composers from the USA. Are there? Also, what was the USA listening to when Europe was listening to Mozart, Bach, Beethoven, etc? Basically, what music was being listened to in the USA between 1628 up until Sousa and Joplin?

-Thanks-

Piano & Music Gifts & Accessories (570)
Piano accessories and music gift items, digital piano dolly, music theme party goods
Re: American music 1600s - 1800s (?) [Re: nocturne152] #1893059 05/07/12 04:19 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 22,593
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 22,593
Great question!

BTW I wonder the same about England from about 1700 to 1950. ha

And, for that matter, what about Africa and the Orient for hundreds and hundreds of years?

And we can wonder about the Native Americans, including the Incas -- they had to have had music (every culture has, as far as we know), and I bet some of it was special.

I think there's a book in this, if anyone wants to do it. smile

Re: American music 1600s - 1800s (?) [Re: nocturne152] #1893064 05/07/12 04:24 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 924
M
MarkH Offline
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 924
As far as I know, Gottschalk 1829-1869 was the first "serious" American composer. Keep in mind that in order to support such an elite occupation as composition, there needs to be a certain level of infrastructure and division of labor, as well as enough gentry to form a critical mass of consumers. I'd say it's likely that there were people in America during its early years who had the potential to become serious composers, but by and large they were busy with other, more fundamental things, like procuring food and developing the country.

I don't remember the exact wording of this, but there's a quote frequently mentioned on The Thomas Jefferson Hour (great NPR show/podcast if you're unaware). I think it's by John Adams. He said something like:

"We must be farmers, so our children can be lawyers and statesmen, so their children can be poets and ballerinas."

Last edited by MarkH; 05/07/12 04:31 PM. Reason: added quote
Re: American music 1600s - 1800s (?) [Re: MarkH] #1893087 05/07/12 05:15 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 22,593
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 22,593
Originally Posted by MarkH
As far as I know, Gottschalk 1829-1869 was the first "serious" American composer. Keep in mind that in order to support such an elite occupation as composition, there needs to be a certain level of infrastructure and division of labor, as well as enough gentry to form a critical mass of consumers. I'd say it's likely that there were people in America during its early years who had the potential to become serious composers, but by and large they were busy with other, more fundamental things, like procuring food and developing the country....

Well said, but as per what I mentioned also about other lands and eras, shouldn't we wonder also about what 'composing' was occurring on lesser levels of prominence? I mean, you don't have to be renowned as a composer, or even full-time grin in order to have produced great or wonderful music.

The people of those times, in all those places, were doing music. What music were they doing? And what were the greatest and most wonderful things from that music, and who 'wrote' them? 'Wrote' in quotes, because I think as likely as not, in many such places it was stuff that got passed along and got embellished and modified further and further, so that there wasn't really any one composer for most of it.

Re: American music 1600s - 1800s (?) [Re: nocturne152] #1893094 05/07/12 05:27 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,862
apple* Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,862
i wonder if the pilgrim type puritans even brought any instruments.


accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)
Re: American music 1600s - 1800s (?) [Re: apple*] #1893095 05/07/12 05:32 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 22,593
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 22,593
Originally Posted by apple*
i wonder if the pilgrim type puritans even brought any instruments.

If you don't bring them, you make them. smile

When I watched "Survivor," I thought that if I were ever on it, which I wouldn't be grin ....what I'd be doing was looking for stuff to make musical instruments with.

Of course I realized that if you do that, you're the first one kicked off, because you'd be considered totally useless....

Re: American music 1600s - 1800s (?) [Re: nocturne152] #1893096 05/07/12 05:33 PM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 804
Eglantine Offline

Silver Supporter until Jan 01 2013
500 Post Club Member
Offline

Silver Supporter until Jan 01 2013
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 804
Did the Puritans do hymns? Or were even hymns too fancy for them?

Don't forget, in England they shut down the Chapel Royal, theatres and sundry entertainment venues, and composers were obliged to find a meagre existence among the country houses of the gentry for a couple of decades.
And then we had the Restoration, and it was back to BAU. Yippee!


Currently working on: F. Couperin - Preludes & Sweelinck - Fantasia Chromatica
J.S. Bach, Einaudi, Purcell, Froberger, Croft, Blow, Frescobaldi, Glass, Couperin
1930s upright (piano) & single manual William Foster (harpsichord)
[Linked Image]
Re: American music 1600s - 1800s (?) [Re: nocturne152] #1893097 05/07/12 05:35 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,047
tomasino Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,047
The two names that come first to mind are William Billings and Francis Hopkinson. Billings is known as an early choral composer, and is the composer of a very famous and beautiful anthem, "When Jesus Wept." I know nothing of Hopkinson's work, but I do know that he was a signer of the declaration of independence--interesting in itself. A little remembered group of highly skilled musicians were the Moravians, a Protestant sect who came to North Carolina and Pennsylvania as early as 1740 or so. One of the best known is John Antes. I sang a solo anthem of his once called "Behold, and See." It was quite a remarkable work. Other names I remember from this group are Johannes Herbst and Gottfried Mueller. They were mostly church musicians, but were into early chamber music as well. Some of these composers were said to have the works of C.P.E. Bach, Handel, Haydn and Mozart in their personal libraries. There is another great American maverick of this time of German descent, but unrelated to the Moravians, was Anthony Philip Heinrich. He was sort of an odd ball maverick. Louis Mareau (spelling??) Gottschalk makes the scene about 1850 or so. Born in New Orleans and influenced by the free creole Haitians, the slave population, as well as his native French-American culture of New Orleans, he finished his training in Paris--he traveled in the circles of Chopin and Alkan, and knew them both. Somewhat successful as a pianist in Europe, he returned to America and toured the states for quite a few years. I believe his output is entirely for the piano, and composed for him to play on this tours. His diary of this time, I think it's called Diary of a Pianist, is published and available. It is a very interesting read, and tells much of the performance conditions and traditions of that time. Boston is already established as a center of classical music by this time. "Dwight's Musical Journal,"--I think it's called that--is available on line, and contains a great deal of information on the classical scene of that time--it's interesting that Thayer, one of the first and best biographers of Beethoven, was a Bostonian, and a close friend of Dwights. Josef Horowitz has written a book on American music history, and much of it largely centers on the polar opposites of the Boston scene and the New York scene. Worth looking into. Out of Boston, at this time, emerged "the Five," a group of five Boston composers. Let's see if I can remember them--Horatio Parker (teacher of Ives), Arthur Foote, I think "Mrs. H. M. L. Beach" was part of this group, known to us as Amy Beach, and a composer named Chadwick--I can't get his first name, nor can I remember the fifth member of "the Five." I'll repost if I think of them. Other names that pop up from this time, but not necessarily Boston related, are John Alden Carpenter and Charles Griffes. Soon we have too many names to deal with. You mention Sousa and Joplin in your post. They were part of the scene too.

All of this together does not add up to what Americans were listening to. I just read "Men, Women and Pianos" by Charles Loeffler. It's a hefty read of 600 pages, and is a social history of the piano. Well worth the read. Anyway, he goes into what American music culture was in those times, and it was not particularly classically oriented. Hymn tunes, minstrel singing, and overly sugared salon music makes up most of it.

Sorry for the rough post, but it's a broad question you ask.

Tomasino


Last edited by tomasino; 05/07/12 06:33 PM.

"Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do so with all thy might." Ecclesiastes 9:10

Re: American music 1600s - 1800s (?) [Re: nocturne152] #1893100 05/07/12 05:45 PM
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 414
AldenH Offline
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 414
A practically complete answer to your question can be found in Richard Crawford's astoundingly insightful, informative, and for what it covers, remarkably succinct.

I took a graduate class on American music (in addition to examining works by American composers - mostly after the 1850s, and the really only coming into our own in the teens and twenties in regards to musical independence from Europe and Germany in particular - the relationships of folk and popular music to classical music, the culture and 20th century cult of performance of classical music) this past semester (the Crawford was one of the primary texts, as was the Horowitz book mentioned above), and I would give you an answer in full if I weren't short on time and using my phone!

Again, take a look at the Crawford. It is a remarkable achievement.

Re: American music 1600s - 1800s (?) [Re: nocturne152] #1893101 05/07/12 05:47 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,063
W
wr Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Offline
9000 Post Club Member
W
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,063
Wikipedia has this listing, which is probably not too reliable but provides some names to look up, anyway.

Here is a little piano piece by Anthony Philip Heinrich (1781-1861), whose music often had somewhat outlandish titles (e.g., "The Columbiad, or Migration of American Wild Passenger Pigeons")

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zCFczyRjiU

Re: American music 1600s - 1800s (?) [Re: tomasino] #1893103 05/07/12 05:52 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,803
Studio Joe Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,803
Stephen Collins Foster 1826-1864 Wrote music for the common folk and you still hear it today in western movies anytime there is a scene in a saloon with a piano player.


Joe Whitehead ------ Texas Trax
Re: American music 1600s - 1800s (?) [Re: Studio Joe] #1893105 05/07/12 05:54 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 22,593
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 22,593
Originally Posted by Studio Joe
Stephen Collins Foster 1826-1864 Wrote music for the common folk and you still hear it today in western movies anytime there is a scene in a saloon with a piano player.

.....and in Louisville, Kentucky, the first Saturday every May! grin

Re: American music 1600s - 1800s (?) [Re: nocturne152] #1893107 05/07/12 06:04 PM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 447
N
nocturne152 Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
N
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 447
Were there any geniuses?

Re: American music 1600s - 1800s (?) [Re: nocturne152] #1893110 05/07/12 06:13 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,063
W
wr Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Offline
9000 Post Club Member
W
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,063
Originally Posted by lostaccato
Were there any geniuses?


Probably.

Re: American music 1600s - 1800s (?) [Re: Eglantine] #1893111 05/07/12 06:15 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,047
tomasino Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,047
Originally Posted by Eglantine
Did the Puritans do hymns? Or were even hymns too fancy for them?


The Puritans were into Psalm singing. Not quite the same thing as a hymn, which suggests a melody and perhaps harmony as well. They had discovered that singing the psalms was an effective way to teach them. Singing was seen as a mnemonic device to help in the teaching of values.

From this pedagogic insight, and through the work of Lowell Mason of Boston, an early music educator and businessman and music publisher, stems the tradition of musical edification--to edify, to instruct and improve in moral and religious life. It is a highly important word in American music history, and was adopted in the public school system. There has always been an underlying feeling that if a society has a high artistic culture, it will have a high moral tone. But it is not as simple as that. Music, particularly singing, has been used to inculcate a moral tone.

When I was in high school choir, for example, many of the songs were about moral, patriotic, and sometimes religious values. I remember singing "This is my country, land of the free," I remember singing a setting of the Emma Lazarus poem, "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to be free," I remember singing the "Ballad for Americans" by Earle Robinson--"in '76 the sky was red, thunder rumbling overhead, bad King George couldn't sleep in his bed, and on that April morn, ol' Uncle Sam was Born." Before I was of choir age, I remember singing songs about honesty, about thrift, about being kind to animals, about Johnny Appleseed.

I was being taught through the edifying effects of music, particularly the singing of words. I was being taught values in a manner historically and traditionally related to how the pilgrims taught values--through singing.

Probably more than you wanted to know.

Tomasino

Last edited by tomasino; 05/07/12 06:28 PM.

"Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do so with all thy might." Ecclesiastes 9:10

Re: American music 1600s - 1800s (?) [Re: nocturne152] #1893121 05/07/12 06:39 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,047
tomasino Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,047
John Adams and Thomas Jefferson were the last two surviving signers of the Declaration of Independence, when they both died within hours of each, exactly fifty years, to the day, after the signing--July 4, 1826.

What famous American composer was born on that very same day? Scroll down. Way down.














































Stephen Foster, born July 4th, 1826.

Am I being silly. This little known coincidence touches a sentimental spot in me. Adams and Jefferson were old men, and had done their good work. And we got Foster on that same day, so full of promise. I just like his songs, and think they're very American. They touch me. "Hard times, come again no more." What could be more beautiful.

Tomasino

Last edited by tomasino; 05/07/12 06:59 PM.

"Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do so with all thy might." Ecclesiastes 9:10

Re: American music 1600s - 1800s (?) [Re: wr] #1893125 05/07/12 06:48 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 22,593
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 22,593
Originally Posted by wr
Originally Posted by lostaccato
Were there any geniuses?

Probably.

+1

Why?

Every civilization must have had its geniuses, whether we know about them or not, and probably we usually don't.

Re: American music 1600s - 1800s (?) [Re: Mark_C] #1893128 05/07/12 06:57 PM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 4,169
beet31425 Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 4,169
Originally Posted by Mark_C
Originally Posted by wr
Originally Posted by lostaccato
Were there any geniuses?

Probably.

+1

Why?

Every civilization must have had its geniuses, whether we know about them or not, and probably we usually don't.


Let's rephrase the question.

Were there any American composers in that time period who left us great and ambitious music which found highly innovative solutions to questions of form and harmony? There certainly were in Europe during this time period, and in America afterwards.

-Jason


Beethoven op.110, Chopin op.27/2, Liszt Vallée d'Obermann
Re: American music 1600s - 1800s (?) [Re: nocturne152] #1893143 05/07/12 07:18 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,665
J
jotur Offline
Gold Level
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
Gold Level
6000 Post Club Member
J
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,665
Well, if we're rephrasing the question my answer is not relevant laugh

But - the first tune mentioned in the Little House books, about the 2nd half of the 19th century, was Monymusk. On the Monticello website at one time there was a picture of this tune written in Thomas Jefferson's hand. There are fascimiles of diaries and music books at the time of the Revolutionary war with dance tunes from the British Isles, some dating back to the 1600's. The Scotch and Irish in the southeast brought many many tunes with them that are still danced to today.

And of course, in the southwest, like New Mexico, there would have been Spanish influences, as well as other European tunes like polkas.

Kind of the rock and roll of its day smile

Cathy


Cathy
[Linked Image][Linked Image]
Perhaps "more music" is always the answer, no matter what the question might be! - Qwerty53
Re: American music 1600s - 1800s (?) [Re: nocturne152] #1893146 05/07/12 07:23 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,047
tomasino Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,047
Originally Posted by lostaccato
Were there any geniuses?


Genius is a social construction. It is more than having high ability and achievement. One must be regarded as a genius before one is a genius. So I don't think there were any American musical geniuses of that time.

Tomasino

Last edited by tomasino; 05/07/12 07:25 PM.

"Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do so with all thy might." Ecclesiastes 9:10

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Brendan, Kreisler 

What's Hot!!
News from the Piano World
Our January 2020 Newsletter Available Online Now...
Free Piano Newsletter
----------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Shop our Store for Music Lovers!
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Free Trial
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Steinway fallboard lettering
by Lushey1 - 02/21/20 04:30 AM
How do you deal with sweaty hands?
by PracticingPianist - 02/21/20 01:34 AM
FP 90 Question...
by GWILLY - 02/21/20 12:27 AM
I am inspired to write some music
by MichaelJK - 02/20/20 10:51 PM
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics197,098
Posts2,928,235
Members96,057
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2019 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3