Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum Brodmann 212 Adventure...

Good morning to all. I have a very simple, but seemingly unsolvable problem on my brand new 212 hammers: the size/dimensions of them.

Even if new, perhaps due to a bad original set, a new set of hammers is in need.

The same size/typology of Abel hammers is not in the Abel normal catalogue (they are "custom made hammers") and my technician could ask for them with a special order.

But, the real problem is that: when he asked for safe a confirmation to the factory chief technician about that hammers, he told him an hammer size completely different from our original size.

A friend of mine that bought the same 212 some months before me, has the same hammer heads size of mine.

Anybody has the same piano or can verify PE212 hammer heads size? Many thanks indeed

What is specifically wrong with the size/dimension of your current hammers? What is happening in the piano that you attribute to a wrong size hammer?

Finding a replacement hammer for that piano from Abel or Renner is not a big deal at all, if that is what is necessary.

Thank you.

My original Abel hammerheads are 86/76 total lenght, 10.5/11 width.

The suggested factory specs are: 80/72 - 11.6/11.6 : completely different hammers.

I would like to change my hammers just because they are too soft for my piano use, but that's not the problem.

The problem is: what is the right size? The original one or the suggested one?

I can see your dilemma and your confusion… what’s currently on the piano is different from what the manufacturer says should be on the piano. Maybe there is a logical explanation… the manufacturer changed the specs? The custom built hammers were too costly? The new specs are an improvement?

As far as the current hammers being too soft, can they be juiced or voiced up to suit your tastes? I would think the voicing route would be much less expensive than a new set of hammers…

Oh yea, one more thing… if you do find the exact hammers that are currently on your piano and replace them with the same hammers, would you not have the same problem with softness?

Good luck either way.

Rick

I know, it's difficult to speak about this kind of things.

I'll try to explain this "adventure" better.

A professional technician tried to re-work the original hammers, but now I feel the fact that the hammer is a little "smaller" than new, producing a sound that is somehow "smaller" and softer, with less volume.
He said: "Yes, it's so: this instrument was sounding unusually good..."

As a test, the technician installed after some hammers with the measures given by factory that are more common (he had them in his laboratory). The result has been an amplification of the first re-working attempt: smaller the hammer, smaller the sound.
(I don't like it at all, it's just like to have a different grand piano)

So I was wondering if someone could help me to know if this size of 86/76 (or something similar: the size suggested by factory is objectively/technically on an "another planet") hammers is provided on some others 212 or not.

Differently, as regards the hammer "hardness", the problem could solved easily: Abel produces an "hard pressure felt". (this is "medium" instead)

If you want the piano to be louder, play it louder.

Hammers tend to get harder with play, so if you feel the piano is not quite brilliant enough, play it for a while and it should get to a point where you like it. A good voicer can possibly speed the process.

Doing more than that will cost you more money without guaranteed results.

86/76 refers to the hammer bore length, which depends on the physical characteristics of the piano: the distance from the keybed to the string in the bass and treble. Those distances cannot be changed without redesigning the action or the piano.

Hi Dave,

Everything in the hammer affects the tone and range of a piano. The hammers weight, its shape, its material, how it is voiced, etc etc.

You are jumping to conclusions that may be incorrect. A lighter hammer does not necessarily produce less sound, it depends on how it is working with that particular soundboard. A lighter hammer can produce a smaller sound, or it can produce a larger sound depending on the piano's design.

You did the right thing in trying sample hammers on your Brodmann. But, assuming that a hammer's weight is the problem when it can be so many other possibilities can get you into a new problem.

That's why it's hard to explain...

Believe me: I'm already aware of all the factors involved (our technician more than me) and I worn the original hammers in few weeks because I play very loud and for long periods of time.

I think that my piano just needs his original hammer size (86/76 TOTAL lenght): I'm sure that at the factory didn't installed them accidentally.... It was superb.

With other sizes (considering all the aspects of tuning, conditions, ect.) it's on an another planet. It's not a metter of tastes, but technically different.

I'm just in trouble now because factory said us a totally different hammer set (not only in lenght, but also in width... they seems to be for a piano with a different design).

Keith gave the best answer to the problem.

Heavier hammers can create excessive damping on the string reducing the output. Usually above G4 the first pulse of the strings occurs while the hammer remains in contact with the string; adding heavier hammers may have a negative effect on the sound of the piano.

As Keith already mentioned this problem is likely to be in the design of the piano. For instance a soundboard with not enough stiffness or hammers contacting the string too far into the speaking length can cause less volume.

If you are going to replace the hammers go with whatever specifications were given to you by the manufacturer as they are likely to know what is best for that scale design.
The hammers on your piano perhaps are completely wrong. If the hammers installed on the piano were not the adequate size probably the manufacturer's warranty will cover the replacement.

Your tips and considerations are right and indisputable (and well known by me),

but this case is something different (I know it's hard to undestand and believe: that's why I am in trouble):

- my piano is brand new (10 months of life), but the only dealer/distributor in my country is a well-known legally warnered and unsavory person: he doesn't offer warranty support, simply. (I obviously discover that after)

- This piano is a particular version: Bolduc soundboard and pinblock (as artist series).

- I bought it not for the price, but for the sound: objectively astonishing (and completely different from others of the same size and brand).

- I worn out the hammers due to their softness and after the technician "tapering" it was not as brand new (obviously: it was like those "not to be touched pianos", but due to the fact that's not a steinway, nobody seems to believe me).

- The first (quite famous) technician said me the same "beautiful and wise words" as above, asked me a lot of money and leave me just a nasty "good piano". (perhaps he also damaged the original hammers)

- I asked for a different technician who said me: these are totally different hammers, it's obvious that you could only have different results (I believe it)

- The original hammers weren't wrong, but simply too soft for my utilization

- This piano sounded big, loud, strong, full, expressive as in a dream (a true "artist instrument" in that sense): now it's like a common study piano.

Even a deaf could feel the gap.

- Abel Hard felt is quite similar to the "medium": the only difference is that it's more proof and a little (very little) bit more "open". (It's quite difficult to discern one from the other).

- I'm quite sure that the suggested factory specs are not the right ones for this piano (Perhaps they don't even know they have made this piano....)

-A friend of mine has the same specs of mine: did the factory go wrong twice?

I'm sure that it's all more clear now.

In other words I'm just looking for a confirm that another 212 has the same hammer size of mine as well, because I want to install his original hammers, not the one choosed by a technician or suggested by the "on duty" chief "accidentally".

If you are playing so loud that you have worn out the hammers, then you should be thankful that you have soft hammers. Otherwise you would be looking at replacing the strings, an additional expense. Wearing hammers like that is not a warranty issue, it is normal wear.

Dave:

This is a very unusual case, lets see how one can help:

1] First of all, yours is the new AS series from Germany, specifications for the piano are "either Abel or Renner" - couldn't find sizes officially recommended for this particular piano..

2] it would be very unusual for a German factory not to quickly detect a mix up between 2 different types of hammers, yet theoretically it can happen anywhere...

3] what exact work was done by your first technician on the original set: it's virtually unheard of that Renners or Abels wear out in such short time requiring this type major work

4] any chance the first tech boo-booed on 'reshaping' the hammers? Got Pictures of his job?

5] what exactly did Brodmann technical director advise to do next, did you talk to him personally?

6] Keith and others hit the nail on head by saying that tone of piano, dynamic range, etc ca be accomplished by other means than size of hammer only.

I guarantee there are several members on the board here who would be effective in changing things to your 100% liking.

What's the recommended step by Brodmann to be taken next?

Norbert

Lots of people have answered Dave, but no one has answered his question. Anybody have the hammer specs off of an existing 212?

Many thanks! That's my simple goal.

I know by heart the good technical discourses and up to now they did not lead to anything but a lot of wasted money (I'm a student).

I just would like to know the original size of the hammers for my piano and put them brand new inside it again: what could be more reasonable?

I'm not interested in anything that is different from the original project. (no different hammers, no changes of the original project and no miraculous technical interventions)

The dealer re-tuned the hammers before the delivery, perhaps he did a bad work. The first technician removed too much felt from my hammers and now I can have just an "extimate" about the original size.

If someone has the same instrument in his house or in his store and could check the 212 hammer size (the first hammer and the last one), I'll be infinitely grateful to him.

This may sound like a stupid question, but as I read this thread it seems to me that the original hammers were apparently ruined by the dealer before delivery or the first technician when he reshaped and voiced the current hammers after only 6 months of very hard playing.

If this is the case, how do you know what size the original hammers were/are, since they have been altered and reshaped?


How do you know this if the original hammers were reshaped by the first technician after only 6 months? In other words, where did you get this info on the original hammer size on your piano when new?


This is apparently what Broadmann says is the right hammer size now on current production 212’s. It seems to me that only a Broadmann factory representative could answer your question at this point in time. Otherwise, it is a guessing game as to what the actual factory specs (on your current piano) should be.

It’s a shame that you are not getting more assistance and cooperation from your dealer. I hope you find the information you are looking for…

Rick

I'm not telling jokes, it's just difficult to sum up events happened in months.

I can "extimate" the original hammer size for two reasons:

- a friend of mine bought the same 212 in the same store, place and time (but not Bolduc) and he has 86/76 - 11/11,5 hammers

- the actual "re-worked" original hammers in my piano are 83/72 - 11/11,5 (about: they have been reworked manually) and it's mathemathically evident that they are already bigger than the suggested factory specs.

- when the factory suggested us the specs, they confused the bass with the treble size: that's is an another reason (than the others) that makes me doubt about the correctness of that suggestion.

- when I called the first technician, I wasn't "expert" enought about hammers: only now I can say that hammers were NOT ruined, but they just need a light reshape.

The dealer for my country sell their brand new grand pianos at 1/3 of the total list price and does not offer warranty support at all.

As I have pointed out the AS 212 is a brand new piano, one that after selling dozens of Brodmanns, I have never seen myself.

In fact I have never seen one even offered to any dealer so Italy must be ahead of the game.

The only place to get "specs" for this piano from would be the factory or Brodmann itself.

What exactly was the answer when contacting company brass and what has since been done or offered to be done?

We're only all just left guessing around....

Norbert

I have not said that it's an Artist series, but "as an artist series" due to the bolduc soundboard and pinblock. (but like some first artist series pianos, it is marked as professional. Perhaps an experiment! )

I waited two weeks for the specs, they also forgot to tell me the specs until I called them again. I'm quite disturbed by the all warranty support, but (please) I don't want to speak about that kind of things. (I'm honestly tired)

I'm just looking for a confirm about the 86/76 hammers (because they could even be 88/80: who knows?). I'll provide for the new hammer set without asking nothing.

Dear Dave:

Very sad to hear you're having all this problem.

Honest, there's noone who could help you other than factory directly. Yours may very well be a prototype.

I can pm you direct tel numbers of Colin Miles, technical director for Brodmann in Great Britain. Or Frederik Steffes from Steinberg factory near Eisenach Germany

If like, I can get also in contact with either of the above on your behalf.

Let's get to the bottom of this.

Norbert

The hammers is not the only one problem that I have with the brand. Due to the fact that it's probably a prototype, the sound was wonderful, but a lot of problems happened later and a lot of "parts incompatibility" emerged.

Infact I'm waiting for a keyboard replacement from the factory (I'll pay the whole service and keyboard, that will be probably without plumbs and backchecks), but nobody have been kept in touch with me for more than a month and if I ask a simple question that they should know very well, it seems it's a problem and they confuse the bass size with the treble one. You see, I just cannot trust in this service.
(even if I love my experimental grand piano)

(Due to the fact that this kind of things are difficult to define and to solve and there's no support in my coutry, I said to the factory something like: "I do not claim anything, I pay everything You want, but, please, send me the original parts for my piano".

But nothing has happened yet since last september)