2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.9 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Petrof Pianos
Petrof Pianos
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Karsten Collection
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Who's Online Now
65 members (Charles Cohen, cfhosford, albydooby, Blague, Bourniplus, Beowulf, 14 invisible), 461 guests, and 238 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 9 of 13 1 2 7 8 9 10 11 12 13
Re: Pianoteq 4 released
MacMacMac #1892346 05/06/12 03:51 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,172
D
dmd Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
D
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,172
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
The original statement says that they've been working on Pianoteq for a long time (true) and that it's not very good (legitimate opinion). I see no problem with that at all.

"Kind of weird that the PT guys have been working on this product for so long and this is all they have to show for it."
"That was unwarranted considering he has no knowledge of issues involved."

Knowledge of the issues involved is not pertinent. I don't really care what the issues are. I buy products, not the seller's problems.



Well, I disagree that knowledge of issues involved is not pertinent .

Imagine me saying ... NASA has been working on space vehicles this long and this is all they have to show for it.

That, in my opinion, would be laughable because I have absolutely no idea of what issues are involved in building a vehicle capable of traveling through space.

I might say ... I am disappointed that they have yet to build one that might be used by the general public. That would be fine, but I would be out of line to begin criticizing the NASA team for what I consider a lack of progress without having some expertise in that area.


Don

Kawai MP11SE, Focal Professional CMS 40 near-field monitors, Yamaha HS8S Powered Subwoofer, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq and numerous other VSTs (Seldom Used), Focus Rite Scarlett 2i2 Audio Interface, Mackie MIX 5 Compact Mixer.
Re: Pianoteq 4 released
BazC #1892351 05/06/12 04:00 PM
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 377
L
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
L
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 377
I don't think prefacing his comment with "kind of weird" makes he comment a scathing critique of the developers. He didn't say "it's laughable" or "it's inexcusable" or "it's a joke". It doesn't even imply that it's the developers fault. I think people are inferring that blame was assigned when it wasn't. The reason could be a lot of different things. That doesn't change or invalidate someones perception that they think "it's kind of weird" that the situation is what it is.

Re: Pianoteq 4 released
dmd #1892375 05/06/12 04:47 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 11,654
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 11,654
When the advertising copy says "this product is way better than before", what expertise must I possess? None!

I don't need to know or care ANYTHING about what's inside the product. If the product is poor and doesn't meet the claims, then criticism is valid. A vendor ought not make claims he cannot meet.

The only requirements incumbent on the buyer are (a) put up the money to pay for the product and (b) insert the CD into the drive.

In your NASA analogy you omit a critical point, the same one stated above regarding piano software: What are the vendor's claims and has he met those claims? NASA has been rightly lauded for keeping promises made, and criticized for promises unmet.

Re: Pianoteq 4 released
dmd #1892404 05/06/12 05:41 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 16,550
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 16,550
Originally Posted by dmd
You do not like the product ? Criticize to your hearts content. But, please do not take shots at the developers unless you have some specific expertise which gives you the right to do so. Just seems to be in poor taste.


I agree.


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Pianoteq 4 released
MacMacMac #1892405 05/06/12 05:43 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,172
D
dmd Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
D
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,172
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
When the advertising copy says "this product is way better than before", what expertise must I possess? None!


Somehow the phrase "way better" does not sound like a phrase that would be part of an advertising campaign. Can you point out where that phrase was delivered ?


Quote
I don't need to know or care ANYTHING about what's inside the product. If the product is poor and doesn't meet the claims, then criticism is valid. A vendor ought not make claims he cannot meet.


Well, what claim within "way better" did they not meet ?


Quote
The only requirements incumbent on the buyer are (a) put up the money to pay for the product and (b) insert the CD into the drive.


Fine, then do that and skip the sarcastic criticism of the development team part.


Quote
In your NASA analogy you omit a critical point, the same one stated above regarding piano software: What are the vendor's claims and has he met those claims? NASA has been rightly lauded for keeping promises made, and criticized for promises unmet.


The key is who is doing the criticizing. It just does not sit well for someone who knows nothing about the process to be openly critical of a development team who may very well be doing a fantastic job. It just may not be as good as the user would have liked. Users have a way of applying simplistic thinking to a problem when they have no knowledge of the underlying complexities.

I repeat my previous suggestion ....

Criticize the product but without knowledge of what is involved in the production of that product it might be a good idea to lay off the criticism of the developers.



Don

Kawai MP11SE, Focal Professional CMS 40 near-field monitors, Yamaha HS8S Powered Subwoofer, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq and numerous other VSTs (Seldom Used), Focus Rite Scarlett 2i2 Audio Interface, Mackie MIX 5 Compact Mixer.
Re: Pianoteq 4 released
dmd #1892436 05/06/12 06:19 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Originally Posted by dmd
The key is who is doing the criticizing. It just does not sit well for someone who knows nothing about the process to be openly critical of a development team who may very well be doing a fantastic job. It just may not be as good as the user would have liked. Users have a way of applying simplistic thinking to a problem when they have no knowledge of the underlying complexities.

Presented humbly: I have an MSEE, over 10 years experience in telecom, an extensive digital (VHDL, verilog) and analog background. I got into engineering to make music synthesis equipment, unfortunately there is very little of that sort of activity in the US, and manufacturers tend to value in-house talent and corporate secrecy too much to hire me as a free-lancer. I'm currently developing on a digital Theremin and have spent the last couple of years analyzing DP sound technology here at PW gratis. I've seen product development up-close and it's not always pretty.

Re: Pianoteq 4 released
BazC #1892438 05/06/12 06:23 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 11,654
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 11,654
dmd: Please don't suggest that I've leveled any criticism on any developer from any company. I haven't. (You've quoted my post, yet responded (skip the sarcastic criticism of the development team part) by attributing to me comments made by others.)

I refer only to the product, and by inference, to the company that produces it.

I don't know the developers. I don't know what they do or how they do it. None of that matters to me. I care only about the product, so I judge only the product.

Re: Pianoteq 4 released
MacMacMac #1892496 05/06/12 07:52 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,172
D
dmd Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
D
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,172
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
dmd: Please don't suggest that I've leveled any criticism on any developer from any company. I haven't. (You've quoted my post, yet responded (skip the sarcastic criticism of the development team part) by attributing to me comments made by others.)


Did not mean to suggest that at all. My statement of
Quote
skip the sarcastic criticism of the development team part
was only aimed at some non-specific person considering that type of criticism. I understand fully that you have entered the discussion only with an opinion as opposed to actually engaging in the actual criticism part.



Don

Kawai MP11SE, Focal Professional CMS 40 near-field monitors, Yamaha HS8S Powered Subwoofer, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq and numerous other VSTs (Seldom Used), Focus Rite Scarlett 2i2 Audio Interface, Mackie MIX 5 Compact Mixer.
Re: Pianoteq 4 released
dewster #1892501 05/06/12 07:58 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,172
D
dmd Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
D
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,172
Originally Posted by dewster
Originally Posted by dmd
The key is who is doing the criticizing. It just does not sit well for someone who knows nothing about the process to be openly critical of a development team who may very well be doing a fantastic job. It just may not be as good as the user would have liked. Users have a way of applying simplistic thinking to a problem when they have no knowledge of the underlying complexities.

Presented humbly: I have an MSEE, over 10 years experience in telecom, an extensive digital (VHDL, verilog) and analog background. I got into engineering to make music synthesis equipment, unfortunately there is very little of that sort of activity in the US, and manufacturers tend to value in-house talent and corporate secrecy too much to hire me as a free-lancer. I'm currently developing on a digital Theremin and have spent the last couple of years analyzing DP sound technology here at PW gratis. I've seen product development up-close and it's not always pretty.


Well, that certainly gives you some standing to make comments regarding this topic. I must say, however, that I do find it almost more surprising, given your background, that you would make a comment like "have so little to show for it". Surely, you must realize the complexities involved ... especially since there doesn't seem to be any similar products on the immediate horizon coming from you or other music synthesis companies which are progressing much better. Or are there ? Maybe you know of some enterprise that is doing better ?


Don

Kawai MP11SE, Focal Professional CMS 40 near-field monitors, Yamaha HS8S Powered Subwoofer, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq and numerous other VSTs (Seldom Used), Focus Rite Scarlett 2i2 Audio Interface, Mackie MIX 5 Compact Mixer.
Re: Pianoteq 4 released
dmd #1892654 05/07/12 01:57 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,551
G
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,551
Originally Posted by dmd
... especially since there doesn't seem to be any similar products on the immediate horizon coming from you or other music synthesis companies which are progressing much better. Or are there ? Maybe you know of some enterprise that is doing better ?


I consider the V piano to be a similar but better product. Granted, it's not for sale at the same price point, but that's Roland's choice. Anyway Roland whipped it up without dragging development out for years (as far as we know, anyway) and I'm sure the hardware inside the V can't compete with that of my desktop, so that, to me, demonstrates that doing better than PT in a reasonable timescale is possible. I therefore don't think being surprised that they have not made more progress is unwarranted. If the Roland guys can do it (better), why not the PT guys?

I'd also consider the newer sampled products to be similar products. Granted they don't generate the underlying timbre using modelling, but they do modeling for an ever increasing number of things, which is a real improvement.

Anyway, I just think people make too big a deal of the PianoTeq uniqueness. To me, it's not really that special or different. Cheaper than a V, yes. Smaller than a sampled piano (not that it matters these days), yes. A whole new generation of piano? No.

Last edited by gvfarns; 05/07/12 01:58 AM.
Re: Pianoteq 4 released
dewster #1892677 05/07/12 03:33 AM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 258
O
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
O
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 258
Originally Posted by dewster

Presented humbly: I have an MSEE, over 10 years experience in telecom, an extensive digital (VHDL, verilog) and analog background. I got into engineering to make music synthesis equipment, unfortunately there is very little of that sort of activity in the US, and manufacturers tend to value in-house talent and corporate secrecy too much to hire me as a free-lancer. I'm currently developing on a digital Theremin and have spent the last couple of years analyzing DP sound technology here at PW gratis. I've seen product development up-close and it's not always pretty.


To be honest I don't like blank statements like this on forums, do you think you're the only engineer here?
Anyway being an engineer does't help much with judgement on quality of musical instrument sounds.

Re: Pianoteq 4 released
gvfarns #1892710 05/07/12 05:00 AM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,172
D
dmd Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
D
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,172
Originally Posted by gvfarns
I consider the V piano to be a similar but better product. Granted, it's not for sale at the same price point, but that's Roland's choice. Anyway Roland whipped it up without dragging development out for years (as far as we know, anyway) and I'm sure the hardware inside the V can't compete with that of my desktop, so that, to me, demonstrates that doing better than PT in a reasonable timescale is possible. I therefore don't think being surprised that they have not made more progress is unwarranted. If the Roland guys can do it (better), why not the PT guys?


You know, you may very well be correct. I have never played a V-Piano, nor actually heard one live ... so I really have nothing to go by other than comments on this forum and marketing hype. I assume it is "better" because they are selling some of them anyway.

But regardless, in my opinion, what this issue comes down to is having respect and an appreciation for the accomplishments of others. I just feel that a statement such as "have so little to show for it" shows a lack of respect and I, for one, can not let that pass without note.

The Pianoteq development team may or may not be doing the best work possible. I have no idea. But until I do know, I will afford them the respect and appreciation they may well deserve for what they have accomplished.



Don

Kawai MP11SE, Focal Professional CMS 40 near-field monitors, Yamaha HS8S Powered Subwoofer, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq and numerous other VSTs (Seldom Used), Focus Rite Scarlett 2i2 Audio Interface, Mackie MIX 5 Compact Mixer.
Re: Pianoteq 4 released
BazC #1892733 05/07/12 07:24 AM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 136
S
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
S
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 136
It's not skills or experience, or frankly, how many letters one has after their name that's the bothersome part here, it's the Arrogance that is.


Nord Stage 2, VAX77
Re: Pianoteq 4 released
BazC #1892781 05/07/12 08:55 AM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 213
K
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
K
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 213
Hi all,

I've been following Pianoteq for some years now... I downloaded the demo of Pianoteq 4, and surely it's not perfect, but as far as I know is the best pure modelled piano out there, and that's quite an achievement... maybe the sound is more artificial compared to sampled pianos, but it also behaves more like an acoustic piano... in some way is more live than a sampled one.

Is Modartt going to release a Pianoteq 4 Play (current Pianoteq Play is version 3) for 99€? I am not going to spend 249€ for the standard version... but 99 is tempting.

Regards,
Kurt.-

Re: Pianoteq 4 released
BazC #1892823 05/07/12 10:28 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
The concern trolls here should head over to amazon.com. Word on the street is they've got a bunch of negative product reviews posted by people who don't know squat about actually making them. Who will protect the developer's fee fees from those big mean meanies? Oh, the humanity.

Re: Pianoteq 4 released
BazC #1892849 05/07/12 11:14 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 16,550
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 16,550
dewster, your tone is starting to remind me of this distasteful post from a few years ago:

Originally Posted by dewster
My personal theory is there are a half-dozen or so key old-school engineers in Japan & Korea that we are all waiting on to retire / die. The sooner the better IMO, if someone can identify them I'll make it my life's goal to dance (and perhaps worse) on each and every one of their wretched graves.


Please, just give the arrogance a rest.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Pianoteq 4 released
Siriosys #1892881 05/07/12 12:04 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,172
D
dmd Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
D
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,172
Originally Posted by Siriosys
It's not skills or experience, or frankly, how many letters one has after their name that's the bothersome part here, it's the Arrogance that is.


BINGO !



Don

Kawai MP11SE, Focal Professional CMS 40 near-field monitors, Yamaha HS8S Powered Subwoofer, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq and numerous other VSTs (Seldom Used), Focus Rite Scarlett 2i2 Audio Interface, Mackie MIX 5 Compact Mixer.
Re: Pianoteq 4 released
Kawai James #1892892 05/07/12 12:21 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 258
O
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
O
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 258
Originally Posted by Kawai James
dewster, your tone is starting to remind me of this distasteful post from a few years ago:

Originally Posted by dewster
My personal theory is there are a half-dozen or so key old-school engineers in Japan & Korea that we are all waiting on to retire / die. The sooner the better IMO, if someone can identify them I'll make it my life's goal to dance (and perhaps worse) on each and every one of their wretched graves.


Please, just give the arrogance a rest.

Kind regards,
James
x


wow, what an awful and arrogant post by dewster… sick

Re: Pianoteq 4 released
Kawai James #1892913 05/07/12 01:00 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Originally Posted by dewster
My personal theory is there are a half-dozen or so key old-school engineers in Japan & Korea that we are all waiting on to retire / die. The sooner the better IMO, if someone can identify them I'll make it my life's goal to dance (and perhaps worse) on each and every one of their wretched graves.

Yes, out of context, heck even in context (backstory for noobs: I was overwhelmed by the BS emanating from my DPBSD testing) that sounds quite harsh, and I apologize for that now (as I did to you back then in that thread James). But I stand by my assessment that old technology is holding DPs back.

Originally Posted by Kawai James
Please, just give the arrogance a rest.

One man's arrogance is another man's off the cuff comment. I'm certainly not trying to get your or anyone else's goat.

Though I must say that I get kind of confused when industry reps tell me to keep my thoughts to myself.

Re: Pianoteq 4 released
dewster #1892929 05/07/12 01:22 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,172
D
dmd Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
D
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,172
DEWSTER: These two quotes


Quote
The concern trolls here should head over to amazon.com. Word on the street is they've got a bunch of negative product reviews posted by people who don't know squat about actually making them.



Quote
Though I must say that I get kind of confused when industry reps tell me to keep my thoughts to myself.



indicate a continuing misrepresentation of what is fueling this backlash against your comments. Don't you REALLY get it ?

It is not the criticism of the product that is the problem.

It is the arrogant manner in which you diminish the efforts and the accomplishments of the developers working on the Pianoteq project with the statement "have so little to show for it".

Do you get it now ?

Not the criticism of the product ... but the arrogant criticism of the developers.

BTW: I don't suppose you have been able to locate that reference to the "Way Better" marketing campaign have you ?



Don

Kawai MP11SE, Focal Professional CMS 40 near-field monitors, Yamaha HS8S Powered Subwoofer, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq and numerous other VSTs (Seldom Used), Focus Rite Scarlett 2i2 Audio Interface, Mackie MIX 5 Compact Mixer.
Page 9 of 13 1 2 7 8 9 10 11 12 13

Moderated by  Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
What's Hot!!
News from the Piano World
Where Did The Buttons Go?!
----------------------
Our April 2020 Newsletter Available Online Now...
The Piano World During the Pandemic!
----------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Fingering advice. Beethoven op 26
by albydooby - 07/15/20 08:09 AM
Peter Martin plays Stevie Wonder
by Simon_b - 07/15/20 07:34 AM
Scarlatti Themed Recital ready for listening!
by Sam S - 07/15/20 07:08 AM
Scarlatti Recital ready for listening!
by Sam S - 07/15/20 07:07 AM
30 days until Recital #59!
by Sam S - 07/15/20 07:04 AM
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics200,269
Posts2,980,873
Members97,771
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2020 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.4