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I see this as a question about the spiritual forces of "good" vs. "evil," and how these forces influence people's decision making rather than an implication of any given system of beliefs.
You lost me at "spiritual force."
Haha! Good one!
Originally Posted by polyphasicpianist
There is an apathy and selective process when it comes to scripture that forces us to be tolerant of it and allow the bigotry and hatred of the truly devoted to thrive.
Faith is not a good thing, it may be unavoidable in a lot of cases but it is not something to be esteemed for its own sake. Sam Harris put it best when he said:
"The problem with faith, is that it really is a conversation stopper. Faith is a declaration of immunity to the powers of conversation. It is a reason, why you do not have to give reasons, for what you believe."
"It is time that we admitted that faith is nothing more than the license religious people give one another to keep believing when reasons fail.â€
You may not like it or agree with it, but that is how it works. Thus the vast empty spaces between the supporters and the dissenters in this conversation. Of course many people hang out in between.
Thank you for the honest answer. While I can't say I agree with everything you wrote here, I don't think it would be altogether useful to question your views in this instance in any rigorous way (and have you challenge these objections equally as rigorously, I am sure) since I think you are advocating something clearly very different than the standard conception of God that your average sunday worshiper is praying to and the conception in which I am, at any rate, arguing against.
Sort of off topic for the thread, but not for piano: This thread shows the value of having a technician present at recitals. It's great that it was done at these performances; it's far from routine. I don't know for sure how often it is or isn't done, but my impression is, not enough. I've even been at amateur competitions where it wasn't done, sometimes with the expected consequences.
[...] I have no doubt that faith has helped people, but this help has been of a superficial nature, driven largely by their own ignorance of the very religion they profess to believe.
...Anyway, this is a generalization, right? If you have not yet encountered someone for whom faith has been profoundly helpful (as opposed to superficially helpful), then I think you may have stopped asking people for their stories too soon. And it is possible (and probable) that even as you have determined someone's faith to be superficial, that person's "little faith" can, when practiced in increments over time, result in more profound faith, and insights, and clarifications, and important personal adjustments down the line that can also have profound positive implications for others many times removed from the person of a once, or still, little faith. One has to be open to faith, though, for it to work. Something about being "tender-hearted." Which is why it really is so personal. I'm really not trying to be an apologist, here. I tend to suspend judgement a lot, though, as in, "I'm not so sure what I think about that, yet," because I am so limited in what I can really know about anything... Whether it is an interpersonal relationship or a political situation or what have you, there are so many unseen forces at play ("forces," in one sense, being the cumulative effects of past actions as they effect current actions) that making judgements about situations can be very dicey.
That said, there are times when one must draw the line and/or act. I do wish people would be a lot more understanding and treat each other better on the micro and macro levels. I am certainly not opposed to saying, "Stop hurting that person!," or, "Stop hurting those people!," or even, "Stop hurting me!" We all have our moments, I know, but, hey!
Exactly. I know quite a few people, atheist, agnostic, and otherwise, who routinely work church jobs for the money. But though they may have beliefs and lifestyles incompatible with the congregations they serve, all consider themselves professionals who are hired to do a job, and they do so with complete respect for those they serve. (And are often very, very good at what they do.)
Originally Posted by lilylady
Interesting thread.
Could a non believer be a church organist?
The answer is yes. And graciously accept the belief of others.
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)
If a religious institution is tolerant enough to host a non-theist's concert, then the non-theist should be tolerant enough to present that concert graciously.
The issue isn't really that - I haven't heard anyone say that Mr. Tao did anything that was not gracious, or what belief system he subscribes to, if any. But anyway, you make it sound like there would be some kind of equivalency, where there isn't any.
...Anyway, this is a generalization, right? If you have not yet encountered someone for whom faith has been profoundly helpful (as opposed to superficially helpful), then I think you may have stopped asking people for their stories too soon. And it is possible (and probable) that even as you have determined someone's faith to be superficial, that person's "little faith" can, when practiced in increments over time, result in more profound faith, and insights, and clarifications, and important personal adjustments down the line that can also have profound positive implications for others many times removed from the person of a once, or still, little faith. One has to be open to faith, though, for it to work. Something about being "tender-hearted." Which is why it really is so personal. I'm really not trying to be an apologist, here. I tend to suspend judgement a lot, though, as in, "I'm not so sure what I think about that, yet," because I am so limited in what I can really know about anything... Whether it is an interpersonal relationship or a political situation or what have you, there are so many unseen forces at play ("forces," in one sense, being the cumulative effects of past actions as they effect current actions) that making judgements about situations can be very dicey.
That said, there are times when one must draw the line and/or act. I do wish people would be a lot more understanding and treat each other better on the micro and macro levels. I am certainly not opposed to saying, "Stop hurting that person!," or, "Stop hurting those people!," or even, "Stop hurting me!" We all have our moments, I know, but, hey!
I am not going to lie, I don't quite grasp your argument here but, from what I can gather, it seems to me that you are incorrectly conflating the notion of "faith," i.e. the uncritical acceptance of something, with profound aspects of human subjectivity. The former does not entail the latter with anything even approximating necessity, though I am aware that many people do believe it does.
“Man is manifestly not the measure of all things. This universe is shot through with mystery. The very fact of its being, and of our own, is a mystery absolute, and the only miracle worthy of the name. The consciousness that animates us is itself central to this mystery and ground for any experience we may wish to call “spiritual.†No myth needs to be embraced for us to commune with the profundity of our circumstance. No personal God need be worshipped for us to live in awe at the beauty and immensity of creation. No tribal fictions need be rehearsed for us to realize, one fine day, that we do, in fact, love our neighbors, that our happiness is inextricable from their own, and that our interdependence demands that people everywhere be given the opportunity to flourish." - Sam Harris
Before his performance began, the individual who introduced Tao spoke briefly about him, then led the audience in prayer (apparently a general practice at all performances at Calvin). This prayer included thanking God for Conrad Tao's gifts.
Jesus scorned public prayer, anyway. It's always been interesting to me how many Christians seem to completely ignore what he had to say in the following couple of verses - I think that praying in front of an audience at a supposedly secular concert is exactly the kind of thing that he was talking about.
Matthew 6:
"5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
"6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly."
The answer is yes. And graciously accept the belief of others.
Well, some of them are gracious, at least publicly. I've heard some of them be less than gracious about it in private. But why would anyone let a little hypocrisy get in the way of earning money?
Back to Calvin - they don't allow non-believers on their faculty, so you couldn't teach organ there without being a Christian.
So we need to support ignorance since so many other people are ignorant already anyway? What kind of logic is that? So my stand as a non-theist is offensive, but someone saying an open prayer about a non-theist should be non offensive and tolerated gracefully? I'm sorry, but it's a two way street.
Why is it so ordinary for Americans to see this kind of stuff as, well, ordinary? Time to update already, like some of the rest of the world.
(btw, lose*)
I am afraid that is not how things work, I am pretty sure. As for "updating", the US and the world have been busy doing that, but not along your ways of thinking. At any rate, a modicum of public relations savoir-faire would strongly discourage your attitude in a performer. You need the public more than they need you. You ought to learn to love them, ignorance and all. It is one of the secrets of a successful career, IMHO.
Thanks for noticing my typo..
Sorry, when people mix up lose with loose it bugs me, nothing personal
Yes we have to love our audience, of course you're right, and we have to take everything no matter what because we don't matter, our views shouldn't matter..............
But the original question was would it matter to you, would you care.... Not would you leave or whatever. Yes when it comes down to it, no matter how many balls I have, I'd still play the concert because I'm not rich enough to get fired from a gig or ruin my reputation, but yes it would bother me. Would a theist feel not bothered if the situation was reversed, and someone gave a 30 second lecture on how god is a fairy tale before a concert? Of course it would bother them.
But yes, if the institution was a religious one, of course it would be expected. And the artist should shut up and deal with anything that happens. Right?
"The eyes can mislead, the smile can lie, but the shoes always tell the truth."
The answer is yes. And graciously accept the belief of others.
As an atheist, I worked for a church for 5 years. I still work for another one, on and off. They don't pay you to believe, they pay you to play music... which is what the job is.
"The eyes can mislead, the smile can lie, but the shoes always tell the truth."
Jesus scorned public prayer, anyway. It's always been interesting to me how many Christians seem to completely ignore what he had to say in the following couple of verses - I think that praying in front of an audience at a supposedly secular concert is exactly the kind of thing that he was talking about.
Matthew 6:
"5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
"6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly."
Two things.
First, Jesus did not prohibit public prayer.
Here is an example of Jesus praying in public: John 11:40-42
Quote
Jesus said to her, "Did I not say to you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God ?" 41 So they removed the stone. Then Jesus raised His eyes, and said, "Father, I thank You that You have heard Me. 42 "I knew that You always hear Me; but because of the people standing around I said it, so that they may believe that You sent Me."John 11:40
Second, the reason Jesus said not to pray in public in Matthew 6 was to "not be like the hypocrites", who pray so others will see them pray, and think highly of them.
Jesus did scorn that style of public prayer; One commentary on that scripture explains:
Quote
The hypocrite wants others to think he loves and serves God, when he actually loves himself and wants the adoration and approval of others. The hypocrite will receive only the reward he seeks, and may not even receive that from those who understand his motivation. The hypocrite will not receive any reward from God in response to his prayers, because he is not really seeking a conversation with God.
Quote
But whenever you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you. (Matthew 6:6)
From the same Bible commentary:
Quote
Some people do this literally and will not pray in public. Jesus does not forbid public praying, but He does warn against praying in public if our intention is wrong (seeking to be seen, for example).
The bottom line is that public prayers uttered so those in earshot think that the person is "spiritual" or godly, or whatever, are solely for the purpose of building up that person's reputation, etc, which is why Jesus said not to do it.
But public prayer is not "banned", and when the master of ceremonies at a concert at a Christian college opens with a prayer, that is a very different thing, somewhat similar to saying grace before a meal.
Last edited by rocket88; 05/06/1206:54 PM. Reason: clarity
And the artist should shut up and deal with anything that happens. Right?
Yeah. Kinda. You could take it out on someone else later, say stores, over a few glases of wine. But in public, pretty smile and gracious demeanor. You did say that if it had happened to you, you would walk out.Thus my repsonse. My whole point is that we cannot always change what other people think. I find public prayer to be annoying, too "show-offy", in the holier than thou line of thinking, pun intended. My solution to the problem would be to avoid or to ignore. I do not think that ignoring would be hypocritical as wr or perhaps you suggested, since you are not endorsing the behavior or the belief. Artists are hardly the only people who find themselves in uncomfortable situations. Many professionals do. You just deal with it while preserving your public image. Having said that, they are in their right, on their turf. That is called freedom. Would I have the same reaction to beliefs that are more foreign and hostile to me than Christianity? It would be more challenging, but I would.
PS. I am not lecturing you Pogo. Just thinking loud.
Jesus scorned public prayer, anyway. It's always been interesting to me how many Christians seem to completely ignore what he had to say in the following couple of verses - I think that praying in front of an audience at a supposedly secular concert is exactly the kind of thing that he was talking about.
Matthew 6:
"5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
"6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly."
Two things.
First, Jesus did not prohibit public prayer.
Here is an example of Jesus praying in public: John 11:40-42
Quote
Jesus said to her, "Did I not say to you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God ?" 41 So they removed the stone. Then Jesus raised His eyes, and said, "Father, I thank You that You have heard Me. 42 "I knew that You always hear Me; but because of the people standing around I said it, so that they may believe that You sent Me."John 11:40
Second, the reason Jesus said not to pray in public in Matthew 6 was to "not be like the hypocrites", who pray so others will see them pray, and think highly of them.
One commentary on that scripture:
Quote
The hypocrite wants others to think he loves and serves God, when he actually loves himself and wants the adoration and approval of others. The hypocrite will receive only the reward he seeks, and may not even receive that from those who understand his motivation. The hypocrite will not receive any reward from God in response to his prayers, because he is not really seeking a conversation with God.
Quote
But whenever you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you. (Matthew 6:6)
From the same Bible commentary:
Quote
Some people do this literally and will not pray in public. Jesus does not forbid public praying, but He does warn against praying in public if our intention is wrong (seeking to be seen, for example).
The bottom line is that public prayers uttered so those in earshot think that the person is "spiritual" or godly, or whatever, are solely for the purpose of building up that person's reputation, etc, which is why Jesus said not to do it.
But public prayer is not "banned", and when the master of ceremonies at a concert at a Christian college opens with a prayer, that is a very different thing, somewhat similar to saying grace before a meal.
None of which changes anything, AFAIAC. I'm quite used to these sorts of rationalizations being made by believers. The ones regarding money and property are the most fun.