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tricky measure
#1892416 05/06/12 05:01 PM
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i'm having some trouble. how am i supposed to sync this?

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Re: tricky measure
nocturne152 #1892423 05/06/12 05:08 PM
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Just make sure you can play the RH really well and drop the LH in where appropriate. Once you've got it lined up that way, you can start to play with tempo to get it to match up with the rest of the line.


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Re: tricky measure
Kreisler #1892428 05/06/12 05:14 PM
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I can play the right hand well, but I'm still a little iffy about where to put in the left hand.. not sure how to divide it - if in fact I should be thinking that way.

Re: tricky measure
nocturne152 #1892435 05/06/12 05:19 PM
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For these types of passages, first I make sure I can nail the right hand. Secondly, I figure out my "ballpark" areas where I want the left hand to be. It does not have to be exactly at a certain note, but more like on or around an area of about two notes. Then I set that and practice it hands together as if it was written the way I envisioned it.

Re: tricky measure
nocturne152 #1892442 05/06/12 05:26 PM
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Almost everyone I've ever heard play this subdivide it very specifically. I'm surprised your teacher hasn't helped you with this.


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Re: tricky measure
DameMyra #1892461 05/06/12 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by DameMyra
Almost everyone I've ever heard play this subdivide it very specifically. I'm surprised your teacher hasn't helped you with this.


She assigned it to me on Friday and I started Saturday. So she couldn't have helped me. As far as the passage - I think I just figured out a trick that works for me. I just tap my left foot to the beat and play the right hand with it and it fits right into place. Now I just gotta do that on the left hand instead of my left foot, lol.

Re: tricky measure
nocturne152 #1892511 05/06/12 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by lostaccato
I can play the right hand well, but I'm still a little iffy about where to put in the left hand.. not sure how to divide it - if in fact I should be thinking that way.

You should play the left hand smoothly, then figure out how to play the right hand against it, not vice versa. The left hand is keeping the basic pulse of the piece, before, during, and after this measure.

Re: tricky measure
dfan #1892635 05/06/12 11:46 PM
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Originally Posted by dfan
Originally Posted by lostaccato
I can play the right hand well, but I'm still a little iffy about where to put in the left hand.. not sure how to divide it - if in fact I should be thinking that way.

You should play the left hand smoothly, then figure out how to play the right hand against it, not vice versa. The left hand is keeping the basic pulse of the piece, before, during, and after this measure.


I agree. Once you get it worked out you may find eventually, as I did, that this fioritura works better by starting slowly and quickening the pace or, vice versa, by starting quickly and gradually slowing towards the end of it. Otherwise, it becomes too mechanical, and that's something to avoid at all costs. That will, of course, affect where the right and left hands coincide.

Similarly with the passage in measure 51; I don't think you want to - when it's reached the point of being performance-ready - have the right hand passage divided into four sections of ten notes each.

There's nothing wrong with slightly slowing down the left hand for these passages because you don't want the right hand to suddenly burst into flurry of rapid notes in strict time. One should aim for a genuine ritard so that the fioritura have the time to express themselves gently, delicately, without sounding pushed. They should sound as a natural outgrowth, an embellishment, of the melodic line.

Regards,


BruceD
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Re: tricky measure
nocturne152 #1893306 05/08/12 03:11 AM
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I agree with dfan and BruceD too... Chopin said that the left hand is the conductor, and getting used to this mentality can be very beneficial.



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Re: tricky measure
nocturne152 #1893349 05/08/12 06:05 AM
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I am not very good at this sort of thing. i teach a young girl who effortlessly can perform this sort of passage. It takes me quite a while to figure out .. i really should just 'let it flow'.

very nicely articulated Bruce.

regards


accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)
Re: tricky measure
ChopinAddict #1893387 05/08/12 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by ChopinAddict
I agree with dfan and BruceD too... Chopin said that the left hand is the conductor, and getting used to this mentality can be very beneficial.
But in reality the LH follows the right when the RH plays rubato.

Re: tricky measure
nocturne152 #1893398 05/08/12 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by lostaccato
Originally Posted by DameMyra
Almost everyone I've ever heard play this subdivide it very specifically. I'm surprised your teacher hasn't helped you with this.


She assigned it to me on Friday and I started Saturday. So she couldn't have helped me. As far as the passage - I think I just figured out a trick that works for me. I just tap my left foot to the beat and play the right hand with it and it fits right into place. Now I just gotta do that on the left hand instead of my left foot, lol.


So, did you ask your teacher about the passage?


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Re: tricky measure
nocturne152 #1893442 05/08/12 09:31 AM
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I think we're talking about two different things.

LH = Conductor is good for performance, but the learning process is different.

Before an orchestra gets in front of a conductor, they have to practice first. So...the RH has to be absolutely fluent and at tempo *without* the LH before you have a prayer of putting them together.

I think of it in three steps:

1) Refine the RH. Good fingering, good technique, good tone.
2) Drop the LH in. Get a feel for where the beats are within the fioratura.
3) Start to let the LH conduct the passage, bringing the passage up to and in to tempo.


"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

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Re: tricky measure
nocturne152 #1893450 05/08/12 09:49 AM
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I can play the passage with ease now. The reason why I was having so much difficulty was because my brain kept wanting to group each left hand note/chord with every 6th note in the right, anyone who has played this passage knows what I mean. -- I just had to trick my brain and the most effective way of doing that was using my left foot as the beat! I recommend this to anyone in the future playing these kinds of chromatic, uneven runs that Chopin loved to write so much (and I love to listen to grin )


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