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Re: Would it Matter to You?
trigalg693 #1891519 05/05/12 02:51 AM
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Originally Posted by trigalg693
Originally Posted by polyphasicpianist
Originally Posted by trigalg693
Allah means God in a different language, wouldn't be offensive at all :P


[sarcasm] Yep, it is just that simple. [/sarcasm]


It is that simple, although strong anti-Arab/Middle-East sentiment makes certain people think otherwise.


No, it is not as simple as merely the word being in a different language. There's an entire religion attached, a religion which has for many centuries been in conflict, often quite bloody, with the religion of the person who said the prayer before the concert.


Re: Would it Matter to You?
wr #1891520 05/05/12 02:57 AM
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Originally Posted by wr

No, it is not as simple as merely the word being in a different language. There's an entire religion attached, a religion which has for many centuries been in conflict, often quite bloody, with the religion of the person who said the prayer before the concert.



I know that. When I wrote the first post I understood this. Never denied that some people would take offense wink Just saying that a well informed person shouldn't.

Last edited by trigalg693; 05/05/12 02:58 AM.
Re: Would it Matter to You?
GlassLove #1891522 05/05/12 03:10 AM
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Originally Posted by GlassLove
The Gilmore Keyboard Festival is in NO way religious.



So do they actually pay to rent the hall?

Quote



Yes, it was the first time that I had attended a musical event at Calvin. I wasn't shocked by the prayer (heck, our symphony begins each season with the national anthem....that is a little strange to me too). The acoustics of the hall were very nice indeed. I would gladly attend another there. I teach at a large state university and (believe it or not) prayers are said at major gatherings (graduation, faculty awards ceremonies). We even have a beautiful Carillon tower with biblical verses sculpted into its foundation (I am not sure how this could happen, but it has). We actually have a "church" on campus. We don't call it that because it is a state university, but trust me, it looks like a church, is used by people as a church (people marry one another there etc.). It is also the place where many wonderful music performances occur. I have colleagues who refuse to enter because they are "offended" by its resemblance to a church, but they are missing out on quite a few remarkable performances, in my opinion.

Thanks to those of you who addressed the question that genuinely peaked my curiosity.



The word you want is "piqued", not "peaked".

Anyway, I have a friend from Michigan (moved away long ago) who regales me with stories of how backward it is, and how happy she is that she managed to escape. This story about the Tao recital intro fits right in with stuff she has said.

I've attended many concerts in churches and can't even remember the last time the audience had to put up with some introduction like that. I'm sure it's happened, but must have been a very long time ago.

Re: Would it Matter to You?
rocket88 #1891524 05/05/12 03:13 AM
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Originally Posted by rocket88
Originally Posted by lostaccato
It's also disrespectful to anyone in the audience with conflicting views.


With politically correct thinking such as this, the venue would have to clear in advance everything that might be said or done, and clear it with everyone who might attend the event so as to not potentially "offend" someone.

The event was at a Christian college, and they prayed a Christian prayer. Wow.

this:
Quote
They are on their turf so they can do things their way.


The ultimate in being politically correct is to accuse others of being politically correct.



Re: Would it Matter to You?
GlassLove #1891528 05/05/12 03:32 AM
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Just a general comment - the you can't prove something doesn't exist is not a valid argument.

If I believed there was a six foot three and half inch invisible rabbit who goes by the name Harvey standing next to me, you can't prove he doesn't exist, the burden is up to me to prove he does exist. Wasting time on proving things that don't exist is futile ... we all knew that, didn't we?


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Re: Would it Matter to You?
GlassLove #1891529 05/05/12 03:43 AM
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I would find it a little bizarre if this happened. If I had been asked if I minded, I would say no, of course not. If I hadn't been asked I would be irritated by it but wouldn't show it. Isn't that how most reasonable people would deal with it ?

Re: Would it Matter to You?
GlassLove #1891530 05/05/12 03:48 AM
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Originally Posted by GlassLove

I don't think I was terribly clear about what bothered me. Like I said in my earlier post, I am not bothered by public prayer (especially at a religious university). I thought WHAT was said during the prayer could have easily offended someone who has worked so hard to achieve the level of skill that Tao has. Sure, maybe he himself believes God's hand is in his work. I was simply saying that I would want to say something to the contrary were I introduced in that way. So were my piano teacher to say "Oh Christine your playing today was a gift from God," I would most certainly say something along the lines of "No, I just practiced a lot!" Of course the more likely reference to God in my piano lesson would be more along the lines of "Dear God...when will Christine stop playing?" laugh

Have you followed the career of Turkish pianist Fazil Say? He is leaving Turkey because he came out as an atheist and has been suffering since.


What you are saying is sort of the flip side of things that went through my mind back in the days when I used to watch the Grammy awards. When I first watched them, I didn't see this so much, but later, it apparently became de rigueur for performers in some genres to thank god for their win, during their acceptance speech. And I always thought "so your own work and that of many others who worked with you, plus the vast promotional machine of your label, had nothing to do with it?" It seemed like a totally bogus kind of false modesty, and it often also implied the rather nasty self-congratulatory subtext of "see, god likes me more than all the other nominees, so I must be a better person than they are". Or maybe it was just pandering to those who shared their religious ideas.

For obvious reasons, it is extremely dangerous for people to think they have received some kind of supernatural approval. For doing whatever. All too often, it leads them to do all sorts of horrible things to other people or themselves. As in the Crusades.

Re: Would it Matter to You?
Dave Horne #1891555 05/05/12 06:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave Horne
Just a general comment - the you can't prove something doesn't exist is not a valid argument.

If I believed there was a six foot three and half inch invisible rabbit who goes by the name Harvey standing next to me, you can't prove he doesn't exist, the burden is up to me to prove he does exist. Wasting time on proving things that don't exist is futile ... we all knew that, didn't we?


True, but there are philosophical reasons to think that there is personal existence after death. If the atheist says "I don't believe in divinity.", that is a perfectly acceptable statement but if the atheist claims "Divinity does NOT exist." Then the burden of proof lies with him/her. Same goes for the theist who says "I believe in divinity.". That is acceptable, but to say "Divinity DOES exist." would then place the burden of proof on the theist, so the burden of proof can lay both ways.

Re: Would it Matter to You?
nocturne152 #1891583 05/05/12 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by lostaccato
Originally Posted by Dave Horne
Just a general comment - the you can't prove something doesn't exist is not a valid argument.

If I believed there was a six foot three and half inch invisible rabbit who goes by the name Harvey standing next to me, you can't prove he doesn't exist, the burden is up to me to prove he does exist. Wasting time on proving things that don't exist is futile ... we all knew that, didn't we?


True, but there are philosophical reasons to think that there is personal existence after death. If the atheist says "I don't believe in divinity.", that is a perfectly acceptable statement but if the atheist claims "Divinity does NOT exist." Then the burden of proof lies with him/her. Same goes for the theist who says "I believe in divinity.". That is acceptable, but to say "Divinity DOES exist." would then place the burden of proof on the theist, so the burden of proof can lay both ways.


An atheist is an atheist because there is insufficient proof for a god\God\gods\Gods ... whatever. If I, for example, am shown sufficient proof, I will change my position on anything.

We always will get back to this, the burden of proof lies with those who claim that something exists.





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Re: Would it Matter to You?
Dave Horne #1891589 05/05/12 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave Horne
Originally Posted by lostaccato
Originally Posted by Dave Horne
Just a general comment - the you can't prove something doesn't exist is not a valid argument.

If I believed there was a six foot three and half inch invisible rabbit who goes by the name Harvey standing next to me, you can't prove he doesn't exist, the burden is up to me to prove he does exist. Wasting time on proving things that don't exist is futile ... we all knew that, didn't we?


True, but there are philosophical reasons to think that there is personal existence after death. If the atheist says "I don't believe in divinity.", that is a perfectly acceptable statement but if the atheist claims "Divinity does NOT exist." Then the burden of proof lies with him/her. Same goes for the theist who says "I believe in divinity.". That is acceptable, but to say "Divinity DOES exist." would then place the burden of proof on the theist, so the burden of proof can lay both ways.


An atheist is an atheist because there is insufficient proof for a god\God\gods\Gods ... whatever. If I, for example, am shown sufficient proof, I will change my position on anything.

We always will get back to this, the burden of proof lies with those who claim that something exists.





With all due respect, that's just not true. The burden of proof doesn't lay only with the positive claim. It is just as equally the negative. The burden of proof lies with anyone making claims for the SURE existence or SURE non-existence of divinity. Divine existence is not in the same category as an "invisible elephant in the room that can't be seen, felt, heard, or smelled". Don't make light of philosophy.

Re: Would it Matter to You?
GlassLove #1891612 05/05/12 08:57 AM
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Don't make light of philosophy.

I wouldn't dream of making light of a philosophy that tries to explain or make sense of that which is unknowable or unexplainable. smile


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Re: Would it Matter to You?
Dave Horne #1891637 05/05/12 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave Horne
Don't make light of philosophy.

I wouldn't dream of making light of a philosophy that tries to explain or make sense of that which is unknowable or unexplainable. smile


Thus proving your ignorance. ^^

Re: Would it Matter to You?
nocturne152 #1891702 05/05/12 11:56 AM
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It was only a matter of time. ha

I'm amazed the thread made it this far....

Re: Would it Matter to You?
Mark_C #1891707 05/05/12 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark_C
It was only a matter of time. ha

I'm amazed the thread made it this far....


Well, Kreisler did say the mice could play... wink


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Re: Would it Matter to You?
Mark_C #1891731 05/05/12 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark_C
It was only a matter of time. ha

I'm amazed the thread made it this far....


haha yea yea... im not trying to sound rude though ^^^^

Re: Would it Matter to You?
GlassLove #1891758 05/05/12 01:37 PM
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What it all boils down to is, do you believe in the supernatural? grin


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Would it Matter to You?
nocturne152 #1891765 05/05/12 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by lostaccato
Originally Posted by Dave Horne
Originally Posted by lostaccato
Originally Posted by Dave Horne
Just a general comment - the you can't prove something doesn't exist is not a valid argument.

If I believed there was a six foot three and half inch invisible rabbit who goes by the name Harvey standing next to me, you can't prove he doesn't exist, the burden is up to me to prove he does exist. Wasting time on proving things that don't exist is futile ... we all knew that, didn't we?


True, but there are philosophical reasons to think that there is personal existence after death. If the atheist says "I don't believe in divinity.", that is a perfectly acceptable statement but if the atheist claims "Divinity does NOT exist." Then the burden of proof lies with him/her. Same goes for the theist who says "I believe in divinity.". That is acceptable, but to say "Divinity DOES exist." would then place the burden of proof on the theist, so the burden of proof can lay both ways.


An atheist is an atheist because there is insufficient proof for a god\God\gods\Gods ... whatever. If I, for example, am shown sufficient proof, I will change my position on anything.

We always will get back to this, the burden of proof lies with those who claim that something exists.





With all due respect, that's just not true. The burden of proof doesn't lay only with the positive claim. It is just as equally the negative. The burden of proof lies with anyone making claims for the SURE existence or SURE non-existence of divinity. Divine existence is not in the same category as an "invisible elephant in the room that can't be seen, felt, heard, or smelled". Don't make light of philosophy.


One can't prove a negative, and even if someone is sure something doesn't exist they don't need to prove it, especially if that thing is improbable. I am sure unicorns don't exist - there is hardly an equal burden of proof on me to that of a hypothetical person believing that they in fact do exist. If you make the claim for the existence of a creator then the burden of proof is unquestionably on you. Not only that, but such an extraordinary claim requires extraordinary evidence.

Last edited by The Hound; 05/05/12 02:03 PM.

Working on:
Beethoven - Piano Sonata No. 15 in D major, Op. 28 ("Pastoral") First two movements; Piano Sonata No. 21 in C major, Op. 53 ("Waldstein") First movement
Schumann/Liszt - Widmung
-------------
Steingraeber B-192
Kawai CA97
Re: Would it Matter to You?
The Hound #1891770 05/05/12 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by The Hound
Originally Posted by lostaccato
Originally Posted by Dave Horne
Originally Posted by lostaccato
Originally Posted by Dave Horne
Just a general comment - the you can't prove something doesn't exist is not a valid argument.

If I believed there was a six foot three and half inch invisible rabbit who goes by the name Harvey standing next to me, you can't prove he doesn't exist, the burden is up to me to prove he does exist. Wasting time on proving things that don't exist is futile ... we all knew that, didn't we?


True, but there are philosophical reasons to think that there is personal existence after death. If the atheist says "I don't believe in divinity.", that is a perfectly acceptable statement but if the atheist claims "Divinity does NOT exist." Then the burden of proof lies with him/her. Same goes for the theist who says "I believe in divinity.". That is acceptable, but to say "Divinity DOES exist." would then place the burden of proof on the theist, so the burden of proof can lay both ways.


An atheist is an atheist because there is insufficient proof for a god\God\gods\Gods ... whatever. If I, for example, am shown sufficient proof, I will change my position on anything.

We always will get back to this, the burden of proof lies with those who claim that something exists.





With all due respect, that's just not true. The burden of proof doesn't lay only with the positive claim. It is just as equally the negative. The burden of proof lies with anyone making claims for the SURE existence or SURE non-existence of divinity. Divine existence is not in the same category as an "invisible elephant in the room that can't be seen, felt, heard, or smelled". Don't make light of philosophy.


Yes, it is true. One can't prove a negative, and even if someone is sure something doesn't exist they don't need to prove it, especially if that thing is improbable. I am sure unicorns don't exist - there is hardly an equal burden of proof on me to that of a hypothetical person believing that they in fact do exist. If you make the claim for the existence of a creator then the burden of proof is unquestionably on you. Not only that, but such an extraordinary claim requires extraordinary evidence.



There are philosophical reasons to think that divinity could exist, therefor the atheist claiming the ABSOLUTE NON-EXISTENCE must carry the burden of proof. Same goes for the theist claiming the ABSOLUTE EXISTENCE of divinity. They both must carry the burden of proof it they make an absolute claim. I've stated this before. What do you not get about this?

Re: Would it Matter to You?
GlassLove #1891772 05/05/12 02:11 PM
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How about praying to *** to grant you the technique of, say, Horowitz?

If you wake up next morning and can play Horowitz's 'Star & Stripes' arrangement like Horowitz, *** exists. Case proven.

If not, *** doesn't.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Would it Matter to You?
nocturne152 #1891774 05/05/12 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by lostaccato
Originally Posted by The Hound
Originally Posted by lostaccato
Originally Posted by Dave Horne
Originally Posted by lostaccato
Originally Posted by Dave Horne
Just a general comment - the you can't prove something doesn't exist is not a valid argument.

If I believed there was a six foot three and half inch invisible rabbit who goes by the name Harvey standing next to me, you can't prove he doesn't exist, the burden is up to me to prove he does exist. Wasting time on proving things that don't exist is futile ... we all knew that, didn't we?


True, but there are philosophical reasons to think that there is personal existence after death. If the atheist says "I don't believe in divinity.", that is a perfectly acceptable statement but if the atheist claims "Divinity does NOT exist." Then the burden of proof lies with him/her. Same goes for the theist who says "I believe in divinity.". That is acceptable, but to say "Divinity DOES exist." would then place the burden of proof on the theist, so the burden of proof can lay both ways.


An atheist is an atheist because there is insufficient proof for a god\God\gods\Gods ... whatever. If I, for example, am shown sufficient proof, I will change my position on anything.

We always will get back to this, the burden of proof lies with those who claim that something exists.





With all due respect, that's just not true. The burden of proof doesn't lay only with the positive claim. It is just as equally the negative. The burden of proof lies with anyone making claims for the SURE existence or SURE non-existence of divinity. Divine existence is not in the same category as an "invisible elephant in the room that can't be seen, felt, heard, or smelled". Don't make light of philosophy.


Yes, it is true. One can't prove a negative, and even if someone is sure something doesn't exist they don't need to prove it, especially if that thing is improbable. I am sure unicorns don't exist - there is hardly an equal burden of proof on me to that of a hypothetical person believing that they in fact do exist. If you make the claim for the existence of a creator then the burden of proof is unquestionably on you. Not only that, but such an extraordinary claim requires extraordinary evidence.



There are philosophical reasons to think that divinity could exist, therefor the atheist claiming the ABSOLUTE NON-EXISTENCE must carry the burden of proof. Same goes for the theist claiming the ABSOLUTE EXISTENCE of divinity. They both must carry the burden of proof it they make an absolute claim. I've stated this before. What do you not get about this?


There aren't any good ones that I've heard. In any case, I could equally ask what you don't get about proving a negative. It's impossible to prove God doesn't exist. Whereas if he existed it would not be (theoretically) impossible to prove.

Either way, and to put it more simply, if two people are arguing the existence of God and each one is certain, then the burden of proof clearly lies with the one making the positive claim. I don't see how that can be disputed.



Working on:
Beethoven - Piano Sonata No. 15 in D major, Op. 28 ("Pastoral") First two movements; Piano Sonata No. 21 in C major, Op. 53 ("Waldstein") First movement
Schumann/Liszt - Widmung
-------------
Steingraeber B-192
Kawai CA97
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