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Do judges count off for.. (?) #1891557 05/05/12 06:37 AM
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nocturne152 Offline OP
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Do judges count off for wrong fingering? If the score dictates you play 3 on this note and 2 on this note etc.. how much would they take off? Also, I understand that there are sometimes expectancies to play specific fingerings in bars where the fingerings are not dictated. For those bars, would they count off if you used your own fingering even if it didn't run with the "usual way" of playing those bars?

Grazi.

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Re: Do judges count off for.. (?) [Re: nocturne152] #1891559 05/05/12 06:42 AM
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What they care is the quality of the music that we produce.
We can even play with only two fingers, as long as it sounds good.

Re: Do judges count off for.. (?) [Re: RonaldSteinway] #1891560 05/05/12 06:49 AM
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Originally Posted by RonaldSteinway
What they care is the quality of the music that we produce.
We can even play with only two fingers, as long as it sounds good.


My piano teacher, also a judge, told me that judges will count off for wrong fingering.

Re: Do judges count off for.. (?) [Re: nocturne152] #1891564 05/05/12 06:54 AM
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Originally Posted by lostaccato
Originally Posted by RonaldSteinway
What they care is the quality of the music that we produce.
We can even play with only two fingers, as long as it sounds good.


My piano teacher, also a judge, told me that judges will count off for wrong fingering.


Then your teacher is either a) trying to get you to pay closer attention to the fingering you're choosing, or b) completely clueless.



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Re: Do judges count off for.. (?) [Re: nocturne152] #1891566 05/05/12 07:04 AM
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There are a few instances in which a judge might take off for fingering choices. There are "cheat" fingering for some well known etudes such as Chopin 10 #1 that if a judge notices you are using you will probably get penalized. There is passage work that may be written for one hand that is much easier with two hands, and if a judge sees you doing this, and thinks it is wrong, you might get penalized.
But if a score indicates you use your second finger and you prefer to use your third finger, no judge will penalize you.

However, if you play a very difficult piece perfectly, and with your toes, you will get all sorts of bonus points, as long as your feet don't stink.


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Re: Do judges count off for.. (?) [Re: Keith D Kerman] #1891580 05/05/12 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Keith D Kerman
There are a few instances in which a judge might take off for fingering choices. There are "cheat" fingering for some well known etudes such as Chopin 10 #1 that if a judge notices you are using you will probably get penalized. There is passage work that may be written for one hand that is much easier with two hands, and if a judge sees you doing this, and thinks it is wrong, you might get penalized.
But if a score indicates you use your second finger and you prefer to use your third finger, no judge will penalize you.

However, if you play a very difficult piece perfectly, and with your toes, you will get all sorts of bonus points, as long as your feet don't stink.


Thanks for the advice!

Re: Do judges count off for.. (?) [Re: stores] #1891600 05/05/12 08:25 AM
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+1


Originally Posted by stores
Originally Posted by lostaccato
Originally Posted by RonaldSteinway
What they care is the quality of the music that we produce.
We can even play with only two fingers, as long as it sounds good.


My piano teacher, also a judge, told me that judges will count off for wrong fingering.


Then your teacher is either a) trying to get you to pay closer attention to the fingering your choosing, or b) completely clueless.


"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

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Re: Do judges count off for.. (?) [Re: nocturne152] #1891603 05/05/12 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Keith D Kerman
However, if you play a very difficult piece perfectly, and with your toes, you will get all sorts of bonus points, as long as your feet don't stink.


[Linked Image]

I'd feel for the next person to play ...


In truth, for most pieces the judges would not really be in a position to observe fingering with any particular accuracy. They're not sitting or standing near the pianist like they might be in a master class environment.

In addition, for many other works there are several very different ways to grab certain passages. I'm thinking of Beethoven's Tempest sonata, for instance. In the first movement there are multiple options for a certain section. You can use opposite hands from what other pianists choose and it's all fine.

Re: Do judges count off for.. (?) [Re: Piano*Dad] #1891606 05/05/12 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Piano*Dad
Quote
However, if you play a very difficult piece perfectly, and with your toes, you will get all sorts of bonus points, as long as your feet don't stink.


[Linked Image]

I'd feel for the next person to play ...


In truth, for most pieces the judges would not really be in a position to observe fingering with any particular accuracy. They're not sitting or standing near the pianist like they might be in a master class environment.

In addition, for many other works there are several very different ways to grab certain passages. I'm thinking of Beethoven's Tempest sonata, for instance. In the first movement there are multiple options for a certain section. You can use opposite hands from what other pianists choose and it's all fine.


I was mostly referring to major competitions where the cameras are on their faces and hands.

Re: Do judges count off for.. (?) [Re: nocturne152] #1891608 05/05/12 08:50 AM
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Yes, in certain auditions where scales are required, fingering counts.


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Re: Do judges count off for.. (?) [Re: nocturne152] #1891614 05/05/12 09:02 AM
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Honest question: Are there ever any judges who are blind, and thus must judge solely on the sound?


Piano teacher.
Re: Do judges count off for.. (?) [Re: nocturne152] #1891631 05/05/12 09:38 AM
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This is what i don't understand about the fingering ruling. Wouldn't that actually be a skillful thing if somebody ending up having a fingering that is better? Sometimes i get fingerings on sheet music that is usually made toward the hand size of the arranger. What if somebody has small hands and can't reach or preform that written fingering and has to make their own? That doesn't seem very fair to me, speaking that you can get a piece to sound exactly the same whither you use different fingers are not. I know that from my Hands because my fingers are medium but my palms are not that big. I have even seen talented pianists with extremely small hands. Can somebody explain why? I am referring to being ( unable ) due to technical reasons that are uncontrollable.

Last edited by DanTheMan14; 05/05/12 09:43 AM.
Re: Do judges count off for.. (?) [Re: nocturne152] #1891674 05/05/12 10:59 AM
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I can't think of any competition where judges would be worried about fingering; to begin with, they are rarely in a position to view fingering closely and there are too many other things for them to judge. They are judging the musical and artistic quality of a performance.

Any intelligent judge knows that we all have different sized/shaped hands and that there is rarely any "one fingering fits all" that could be applied in serious competitions. Perhaps, as others have suggested, if you are taking an examination where scales are part of the process, you might be poorly judged if your fingering doesn't produce clean, even scales. Even there, it should be the results that count.

Regards,


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Re: Do judges count off for.. (?) [Re: rocket88] #1891680 05/05/12 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by rocket88

Honest question: Are there ever any judges who are blind, and thus must judge solely on the sound?


It is standard for orchestral auditions for the judges and participants to be separated by a screen so that neither can see the other. I don't know how prevalent this is for piano competitions.

The only time I can think of where judges would be looking at fingering is on scale and arpeggio playing in a graded examination.


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Re: Do judges count off for.. (?) [Re: Arghhh] #1891682 05/05/12 11:10 AM
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Thanks!


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Re: Do judges count off for.. (?) [Re: nocturne152] #1891699 05/05/12 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by lostaccato
Originally Posted by RonaldSteinway
What they care is the quality of the music that we produce.
We can even play with only two fingers, as long as it sounds good.
My piano teacher, also a judge, told me that judges will count off for wrong fingering.

Absolutely wrong, except maybe for the rarest of exceptions, like if your fingering means you're "cheating" in some way.

Originally Posted by Keith D Kerman
There are a few instances in which a judge might take off for fingering choices. There are "cheat" fingering for some well known etudes such as Chopin 10 #1....

Exactly the first thing that popped into my mind.
I have a fingering where you never have to stretch more than a 7th. ha

Lostaccato: What do you mean by "wrong fingering" anyway??
And, I'm wondering if this is one of those instances, of which I'm sure there are more than we ever find out, where the teacher is being misquoted or taken badly out of context. Anyone else wondering if the teacher really said this incredibly stupid thing? I'd guess that he/she didn't. It's just too stupid.
Like, for example, I can imagine that a student used a particular bad fingering and the teacher said if you do that, you won't be able to play it musically and then you'll stink, and then you'll be 'counted off'....

But as presented? I'm very skeptical.

Re: Do judges count off for.. (?) [Re: Mark_C] #1891715 05/05/12 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark_C
Originally Posted by lostaccato
Originally Posted by RonaldSteinway
What they care is the quality of the music that we produce.
We can even play with only two fingers, as long as it sounds good.
My piano teacher, also a judge, told me that judges will count off for wrong fingering.

Absolutely wrong, except maybe for the rarest of exceptions, like if your fingering means you're "cheating" in some way.

Originally Posted by Keith D Kerman
There are a few instances in which a judge might take off for fingering choices. There are "cheat" fingering for some well known etudes such as Chopin 10 #1....

Exactly the first thing that popped into my mind.
I have a fingering where you never have to stretch more than a 7th. ha

Lostaccato: What do you mean by "wrong fingering" anyway??
And, I'm wondering if this is one of those instances, of which I'm sure there are more than we ever find out, where the teacher is being misquoted or taken badly out of context. Anyone else wondering if the teacher really said this incredibly stupid thing? I'd guess that he/she didn't. It's just too stupid.
Like, for example, I can imagine that a student used a particular bad fingering and the teacher said if you do that, you won't be able to play it musically and then you'll stink, and then you'll be 'counted off'....

But as presented? I'm very skeptical.


You're right - I presented the situation horribly now that I look back. Now that I think about it, I remember it WAS about some sort of "cheating". At the end of op9 no2, I played them with two hands since I can't yet perform it with one hand. (yet!!) and she told me about that, but she also commented about how, in op9 no2, I played the top notes of the left hand chords with my THUMB instead of my pointer. I understand how that could make problems regarding legato. Would a judge take off points for using 1 instead of 2 on the high notes in the left hand chords in op9 no2?

Re: Do judges count off for.. (?) [Re: nocturne152] #1891720 05/05/12 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by lostaccato
....I presented the situation horribly now that I look back....

Thanks for clarifying yourself.
She didn't mean you'd be penalized for the fingering, but for not playing well.

Note to everybody: When someone makes a teacher sound stupid, they're probably not telling it exactly how it was.

Originally Posted by lostaccato
....Would a judge take off points for using 1 instead of 2 on the high notes in the left hand chords in op9 no2?

What's this whole thing about "taking off points," anyway? Why aren't you rather worrying just about playing well, and whether it sukks or not? ha

And no, they wouldn't "take off points," if you can play it well that way. If it's a fingering that makes you play unmusically or badly, they'd take off points, but more importantly, you'd be playing badly.

Re: Do judges count off for.. (?) [Re: nocturne152] #1891721 05/05/12 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by lostaccato
[...] Would a judge take off points for using 1 instead of 2 on the high notes in the left hand chords in op9 no2?


I still say: No, s/he wouldn't; in most cases the judge can't see your fingerings; it's the sound and tone production that matter. By the way, how many competitions are monitored with cameras throughout, anyway? Even those that are don't constantly and consistently aim at the pianist's hands. At the stage of competitions, festivals, and even most examination contexts, I think the question of being marked on fingering is a non-issue if what is produced is musically appropriate.

Regards,


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Re: Do judges count off for.. (?) [Re: nocturne152] #1891729 05/05/12 12:42 PM
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Thanks guys!

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