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attention music nerds - there will be scale spellings...:/
#1891363 05/04/12 07:31 PM
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Ok, I call upon my fellow music nerds who probably exist within this forum somewheres...

I'm not totally sure I understand EXACTLY how scales ares spelled, but I =NEED= to as I'm writing a sheet music notation app (for piano practice.)

So below are the rules as I know em.
Please correct me. (I know SOMEbody will.)

If you could pay special attention to the lines with comments on the right... well...

I'd REALLY appreciate some help with this cursing

thanks much eek


Code
start with spelling of 7 scale tones per keysig's sharp else flat
   7 tones of scale ALL on DIFFerent letters
if minor, M6 and M7 are ALWAYS m6,m7 SHARPED (naturaled flat/doublesharped)
   since "sort of in the scale as almost tones"
SINGLE LETTER for tonic, dominant - not duped even for tones outside scale
no letter used 3 times when making outside the scale tones (2 =max=)


==================== MAJOR KEYS ===================
            xx      xx          xx      xx      xx
flats   KEY m2  M2  m3  M3  4   tri DOM m6  M6  m7  M7
0       C   db  D   eb  E   F   f#  G   ab  A   bb  B
1       F   gb  G   ab  A   Bb  b%  C   db  D   eb  E
2       Bb  cb  C   db  D   Eb  e%  F   gb  G   ab  A
3       Eb  fb  F   gb  G   Ab  a%  Bb  cb  C   db  D
4       Ab  bbb Bb  cb  C   Db  d%  Eb  fb  F   gb  G  <= b double flat??
5       Db  ebb Eb  fb  F   Gb  g%  Ab  bbb Bb  b%  C  <= e double flat?
6       Gb  abb Ab  bbb Bb  Cb  c%  Db  ebb Eb  fb  F  <= bbb cuz can't 3*a?
7       Cb  dbb Db  ebb Eb  Fb  f%  Gb  abb Ab  bbb Bb  yikes!

            xx      xx          xx      xx      xx
sharps  KEY m2  M2  m3  M3  4   tri DOM m6  M6  m7  M7
1       G   ab  A   a#  B   C   c#  D   eb  E   f%  F#
2       D   eb  E   f%  F#  G   g#  A   bb  B   c%  C#
3       A   bb  B   b#  C#  D   d#  E   f%  F#  g%  G#  <=b# or c% ??
4       E   f%  F#  g%  G#  A   a#  B   c%  C#  d%  D#
5       B   c%  C#  d%  D#  E   e#  F#  g%  G#  a%  A#
6       F#  g%  G#  a%  A#  B   b#  C#  d%  D#  e%  E#
7       C#  d%  D#  e%  E#  F#  fx  G#  a%  A#  b%  B#


==================== MINOR KEYS ===================
            xx          xx      xx          #%      #%
flats   KEY m2  M2  m3  M3  4   tri DOM m6  M6  m7  M7
0       A   bb  B   C   db  D   d#  E   F   f#  G   g#
1       D   eb  E   F   gb  G   g#  A   Bb  b%  C   c#
2       G   ab  A   Bb  b%  C   c#  D   Eb  e%  F   f#
3       C   db  D   Eb  e%  F   f#  G   Ab  a%  Bb  b%
4       F   gb  G   Ab  b%  Bb  b%  C   Db  d%  Eb  e%
5       Bb  cb  C   Db  d%  Eb  e%  F   Gb  g%  Ab  a%
6       Eb  fb  F   Gb  g%  Ab  a%  Bb  Cb  c%  Db  d%
7       Ab  bbb Bb  Cb  c%  Db  d%  Eb  Fb  f%  Gb  g%

            xx          xx      xx          #x      #x
sharps  KEY m2  M2  m3  M3  4   tt  DOM m6  M6  m7  M7
1       E   f%  F#  G   g#  A   a#  B   C   c#  D   d#
2       B   c%  C#  D   d#  E   f%  F#  G   g#  A   a#
3       F#  g%  G#  A   a#  B   c%  C#  D   d#  E   e#
4       C#  d%  D#  E   f%  F#  g%  G#  A   a#  B   b#
5       G#  a%  A#  B   c%  C#  cx  D#  E   e#  F#  fx
6       D#  e%  E#  F#  g%  G#  gx  A#  B   b#  C#  cx
7       A#  b%  B#  C#  d%  D#  dx  E#  F#  fx  G#  gx



http://PianoCheetah.app - my weird piano practice program
Re: attention music nerds - there will be scale spellings...:/
Stephen Hazel #1891365 05/04/12 07:32 PM
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Re: attention music nerds - there will be scale spellings...:/
Stephen Hazel #1891370 05/04/12 07:39 PM
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that was pretty dang fast. n funny.
buuuuuuuuuut, not quite what i was lookin fer...;)


http://PianoCheetah.app - my weird piano practice program
Re: attention music nerds - there will be scale spellings...:/
Stephen Hazel #1891396 05/04/12 08:51 PM
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I was taught that when writing chromatic scales, you use only the same kind of accidental throughout the run, in relation to the key/chord at the time. IE with F Major you use only flats and naturals and G Major you use just sharps and naturals. Following this, there shouldn't ever need to be any double flats or sharps.

Is this what you're asking?


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Re: attention music nerds - there will be scale spellings...:/
Stephen Hazel #1891399 05/04/12 08:55 PM
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Basically it looks correct.

But...it makes no sense to have m2 within the context of a major scale, so the question becomes, are you writing scales or defining intervals?

For example, the comment on the right for 4 flats that says "b double flat?" - Bbb doesn't exist in an Ab Major scale. It might exist in a piece written in Ab Major, if a different key were temporarily tonicized or for the sake of some odd harmony, but in a diatonic sense, there is no Bbb in Ab Major.

Same for the comment for 3 sharps - B# or C%. It depends on context. If the harmonic context is a borrowed chord (or mode mixture, depending on what you call it), then C% is the correct choice. But if the note in question is part of a V7/iii harmony, the B# would be the correct spelling.

How's that for theory nerd? laugh


"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

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Re: attention music nerds - there will be scale spellings...:/
Stephen Hazel #1891404 05/04/12 09:08 PM
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Stephen,

I'm not going to check all 30 rows. smile

And it looks like "%" is your sign here for "natural", right?

But I can give my opinions about the five with questions/comments:

One general point: Your tritones are usually labled using a fourth (i.e. in C major, tritone is f#), but sometimes using a fifth (i.e. in B minor). I'm guessing you want to be using a fourth everywhere, but I'm not 100% sure that it's more usual to think of the tritone as an augmented fourth rather than a diminished fifth in this context.

Ab major: looks fine; bbb ("b double-flat") is right for m2
Db major: ebb is correct for m2, but there's a mistake on m7: it's cb, not b%.
Gb major: looks fine
Cb major: yikes indeed, but looks fine.
A major: to answer your question in the comments, m3 is c%, not b#. You're doing a third in the key of A, so it's some kind of C, not some kind of B. By the same reasoning, the m6 is f%, not e# (which you got correctly). Otherwise looks good.

Does the reasoning behind the A major m3 make sense; was that just a typo? If so, you can double-check all these yourself! smile


-Jason

Edit: cross-posted with Kriesler; a couple things:

Originally Posted by Kreisler
But...it makes no sense to have m2 within the context of a major scale, so the question becomes, are you writing scales or defining intervals?

I interpreted the OP (and based my response) on the idea that he was writing intervals. (And he was pointing out which of those intervals make up the various scales.)

Originally Posted by Kreisler
Same for the comment for 3 sharps - B# or C%. It depends on context. If the harmonic context is a borrowed chord (or mode mixture, depending on what you call it), then C% is the correct choice. But if the note in question is part of a V7/iii harmony, the B# would be the correct spelling.

Absolutely correct that in a piece in the key of A major using a V/iii chord, we'd notated it B# (because relative to the key of C# minor (the iii), that note is the leading tone, notated as a kind of B). I still think it's meaningful to ask "how do you notate a m3 in the key of A", and the answer is "C natural", because the third in A is some kind of C. I guess this is just notating intervals, as opposed to thinking about how these notes would naturally occur in pieces.

Last edited by beet31425; 05/04/12 09:17 PM.
Re: attention music nerds - there will be scale spellings...:/
beet31425 #1891419 05/04/12 09:44 PM
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Thaaaaaaaaaaat's what I'm talkin' bout !!
I knew you folks would come thru.

Below is my new list with (I think it was) the 2 changes.
But I have one explanation and 2 new questions:

Kreisler - this is for spelling ALL the 12 tones given a keysig.
So we've got the usual 7 notes of the scale. But it's possible that the 5 outside the major scale WILL show up in a midi file.
And I'm supposed to treat the M6 and M7 of a minor scale special (always sharped from the m6 and m7, respectively).
But that still leaves 3 outside the scale tones that WILL show up in some weird midi file. (And weird music in general.)

I gotta put em on a staff if I see em.

So they gotta have a spelling so I can put the right # % b x bb by em.

Ok, that's the explanation.

1) I don't think I have A minor right since D shows up 3 times:
A bb B C db D d# E F f# G g#
d# has to be there cuz E is the dominant.
Should the Db be a C# instead??

2) Is there a way to know FOR SURE which letter one of the 5 outside the scale tones of a major or 3 outside the scale-ish tones of a minor should use?

I'm not sure I follow this business:
Quote
A major: to answer your question in the comments, m3 is c%, not b#. You're doing a third in the key of A, so it's some kind of C, not some kind of B. By the same reasoning, the m6 is f%, not e# (which you got correctly). Otherwise looks good.


But thanks VERY much - getting this stuff right is EXTREMELY difficult. And there are few folks I've found that know all the "trickyness"


Code
start with spelling of 7 scale tones per keysig's sharp else flat
   7 tones of scale ALL on DIFFerent letters
if minor, M6 and M7 are ALWAYS m6,m7 SHARPED (naturaled flat/doublesharped)
   since "sort of in the scale as almost tones"
SINGLE LETTER for tonic, dominant - not duped even for tones outside scale
no letter used 3 times when making outside the scale tones (2 =max=)


==================== MAJOR KEYS ===================
            xx      xx          xx      xx      xx
flats   KEY m2  M2  m3  M3  4   tri DOM m6  M6  m7  M7
0       C   db  D   eb  E   F   f#  G   ab  A   bb  B
1       F   gb  G   ab  A   Bb  b%  C   db  D   eb  E
2       Bb  cb  C   db  D   Eb  e%  F   gb  G   ab  A
3       Eb  fb  F   gb  G   Ab  a%  Bb  cb  C   db  D
4       Ab  bbb Bb  cb  C   Db  d%  Eb  fb  F   gb  G
5       Db  ebb Eb  fb  F   Gb  g%  Ab  bbb Bb  cb  C
6       Gb  abb Ab  bbb Bb  Cb  c%  Db  ebb Eb  fb  F
7       Cb  dbb Db  ebb Eb  Fb  f%  Gb  abb Ab  bbb Bb

            xx      xx          xx      xx      xx
sharps  KEY m2  M2  m3  M3  4   tri DOM m6  M6  m7  M7
1       G   ab  A   a#  B   C   c#  D   eb  E   f%  F#
2       D   eb  E   f%  F#  G   g#  A   bb  B   c%  C#
3       A   bb  B   c%  C#  D   d#  E   f%  F#  g%  G#
4       E   f%  F#  g%  G#  A   a#  B   c%  C#  d%  D#
5       B   c%  C#  d%  D#  E   e#  F#  g%  G#  a%  A#
6       F#  g%  G#  a%  A#  B   b#  C#  d%  D#  e%  E#
7       C#  d%  D#  e%  E#  F#  fx  G#  a%  A#  b%  B#


==================== MINOR KEYS ===================
            xx          xx      xx          #%      #%
flats   KEY m2  M2  m3  M3  4   tri DOM m6  M6  m7  M7
0       A   bb  B   C   db  D   d#  E   F   f#  G   g#
1       D   eb  E   F   gb  G   g#  A   Bb  b%  C   c#
2       G   ab  A   Bb  b%  C   c#  D   Eb  e%  F   f#
3       C   db  D   Eb  e%  F   f#  G   Ab  a%  Bb  b%
4       F   gb  G   Ab  b%  Bb  b%  C   Db  d%  Eb  e%
5       Bb  cb  C   Db  d%  Eb  e%  F   Gb  g%  Ab  a%
6       Eb  fb  F   Gb  g%  Ab  a%  Bb  Cb  c%  Db  d%
7       Ab  bbb Bb  Cb  c%  Db  d%  Eb  Fb  f%  Gb  g%

            xx          xx      xx          #x      #x
sharps  KEY m2  M2  m3  M3  4   tt  DOM m6  M6  m7  M7
1       E   f%  F#  G   g#  A   a#  B   C   c#  D   d#
2       B   c%  C#  D   d#  E   f%  F#  G   g#  A   a#
3       F#  g%  G#  A   a#  B   c%  C#  D   d#  E   e#
4       C#  d%  D#  E   f%  F#  g%  G#  A   a#  B   b#
5       G#  a%  A#  B   c%  C#  cx  D#  E   e#  F#  fx
6       D#  e%  E#  F#  g%  G#  gx  A#  B   b#  C#  cx
7       A#  b%  B#  C#  d%  D#  dx  E#  F#  fx  G#  gx


http://PianoCheetah.app - my weird piano practice program
Re: attention music nerds - there will be scale spellings...:/
nocturne152 #1891491 05/05/12 12:55 AM
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Originally Posted by lostaccato
42
laugh lostaccato, you probably should post that in the "Would it matter to you?" thread!


Best regards,

Deborah
Re: attention music nerds - there will be scale spellings...:/
Stephen Hazel #1891595 05/05/12 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Stephen Hazel
2) Is there a way to know FOR SURE which letter one of the 5 outside the scale tones of a major or 3 outside the scale-ish tones of a minor should use?


Yes and no. In order to know for sure, the app would have to be able to analyze the harmonic context in the surrounding passage, and nobody's really been able to figure out how to do that. Even MIDI imports in Finale and Sibelius have to be cleaned up by hand. So theoretically, it's possible to know for sure, but it would involve teaching the software how to recognize all the possible harmonic contexts.

The problem is that MIDI was never meant to be used with standard notation. It's just a set of instructions that a computer understands. For notation, Music XML is a much more powerful standard.

In addition, many notational conventions are based on making things easy for humans to read. The positioning of accidentals, beam lengths and angles, which notes are nudged to the left or right in chords containing seconds, when to use an 8th note and a rest instead of a staccato quarter note, etc... The MIDI specification is unable to communicate these things.


"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

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Re: attention music nerds - there will be scale spellings...:/
Stephen Hazel #1891622 05/05/12 09:23 AM
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Ok, yeah, that's true.
I =may= be able to identify modulations based on
keysigs already being in the midi file.
But doing chords right and identifying melodies
that area ascending (#s) and descending (bs) is
probably somethin I just won't be able to do.


So how about just the A Minor scale spelling.

How's it supposed to go?
D shows up 3 times:
A bb B C db D d# E F f# G g#

d# has to be there cuz E is the dominant.
Should the Db be a C# instead??


thanks much for the help - I =REALLY= appreciate it smile



http://PianoCheetah.app - my weird piano practice program
Re: attention music nerds - there will be scale spellings...:/
Stephen Hazel #1891643 05/05/12 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Stephen Hazel
So how about just the A Minor scale spelling.

How's it supposed to go?


I assume you are asking about A harmonic minor.

A, B, C, D, E, F, G#, A.


Joe Whitehead ------ Texas Trax
Re: attention music nerds - there will be scale spellings...:/
Stephen Hazel #1891684 05/05/12 11:14 AM
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sorry, not just the scale, how you'ld spell all 12 available tones given
a keysig of A Minor.
So AMinor/CMajor keysig, but "knowing" that the passage is minor, how
to spell all 12 tones.

I think it should be
A bb B C c# D d# E F f# G g#

Which is weird because you have one flat, but all the rest are sharp..
f#,g# per the "sharp the m6 and m7 into M6 and M7, respectively =IF= minor" rule.
And d# per tonic,dominant have their OWN letter rule.
And c# per the no 3 letter sequences, 2 =MAX= rule.
And bb because the keysig of A Minor/C Major is generally flat.

And c major has
C db D eb E F f# G ab A bb B
which is all flat except for the f#
(since A Minor/C Major is generally flat)
(f# per the dominant get's it's OWN letter rule)


This is all conjecture on my part based on what many music theory experts
(and by that I mean you guys and Victoria over here:
http://www.mymusictheory.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=471
) have told me. This is not codified ANYwhere as far as I know.
Which seems odd to me, given that it's a several hundred year old standard...

If anyone finds errors here, I'm hoping you'll point em out.
And if anyone knows of a SOURCE, I'd really like to know that, too.



http://PianoCheetah.app - my weird piano practice program
Re: attention music nerds - there will be scale spellings...:/
Stephen Hazel #1891692 05/05/12 11:26 AM
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SORRY to be so troublesome - ooooone last question:

The way you spell these scales is how it SHOULD show up
on the lines and spaces of standard sheet music, right?
(with the addition of taking modulations and ascending/
descending melody lines and chords into account)

Just wanna make sure.


http://PianoCheetah.app - my weird piano practice program
Re: attention music nerds - there will be scale spellings...:/
Stephen Hazel #1891718 05/05/12 12:20 PM
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Ok fellow nerds. I think i got all my answers.
THANK YOU!!

Here's what I got. (for posterity - or whatever ya call it)
Code
rules:
- start with spelling of 7 scale tones per keysig's sharp else flat
- 7 tones of scale ALL on DIFFerent letters
- if minor, M6 and M7 are ALWAYS m6,m7 SHARPED (naturaled flat/doublesharped)
  since "sort of in the scale as almost tones"
- SINGLE LETTER for tonic, dominant - not duped even for tones outside scale
- no letter used 3 times when making outside the scale tones (2 =max=)

checking:
- vertically, sharps should read fcgdaeb
- vertically, flats  should read beadgcf
- cols should have SAME letter:  2,3  4,5  6,7  9,10  11,12

==================== MAJOR KEYS ===================
            xx      xx          xx      xx      xx
flats   KEY m2  M2  m3  M3  4   tri DOM m6  M6  m7  M7
0       C   db  D   eb  E   F   f#  G   ab  A   bb  B
1       F   gb  G   ab  A   Bb  bn  C   db  D   eb  E
2       Bb  cb  C   db  D   Eb  en  F   gb  G   ab  A
3       Eb  fb  F   gb  G   Ab  an  Bb  cb  C   db  D
4       Ab  bbb Bb  cb  C   Db  dn  Eb  fb  F   gb  G
5       Db  ebb Eb  fb  F   Gb  gn  Ab  bbb Bb  cb  C
6       Gb  abb Ab  bbb Bb  Cb  cn  Db  ebb Eb  fb  F
7       Cb  dbb Db  ebb Eb  Fb  fn  Gb  abb Ab  bbb Bb

            xx      xx          xx      xx      xx
sharps  KEY m2  M2  m3  M3  4   tri DOM m6  M6  m7  M7
1       G   ab  A   bb  B   C   c#  D   eb  E   fn  F#
2       D   eb  E   fn  F#  G   g#  A   bb  B   cn  C#
3       A   bb  B   cn  C#  D   d#  E   fn  F#  gn  G#
4       E   fn  F#  gn  G#  A   a#  B   cn  C#  dn  D#
5       B   cn  C#  dn  D#  E   e#  F#  gn  G#  an  A#
6       F#  gn  G#  an  A#  B   b#  C#  dn  D#  en  E#
7       C#  dn  D#  en  E#  F#  fx  G#  an  A#  bn  B#


==================== MINOR KEYS ===================
            xx          xx      xx          n#      n#
flats   KEY m2  M2  m3  M3  4   tri DOM m6  M6  m7  M7
0       A   bb  B   C   c#  D   d#  E   F   f#  G   g#
1       D   eb  E   F   f#  G   g#  A   Bb  bn  C   c#
2       G   ab  A   Bb  bn  C   c#  D   Eb  en  F   f#
3       C   db  D   Eb  en  F   f#  G   Ab  an  Bb  bn
4       F   gb  G   Ab  an  Bb  bn  C   Db  dn  Eb  en
5       Bb  cb  C   Db  dn  Eb  en  F   Gb  gn  Ab  an
6       Eb  fb  F   Gb  gn  Ab  an  Bb  Cb  cn  Db  dn
7       Ab  bbb Bb  Cb  cn  Db  dn  Eb  Fb  fn  Gb  gn

            xx          xx      xx          #x      #x
sharps  KEY m2  M2  m3  M3  4   tt  DOM m6  M6  m7  M7
1       E   fn  F#  G   g#  A   a#  B   C   c#  D   d#
2       B   cn  C#  D   d#  E   e#  F#  G   g#  A   a#
3       F#  gn  G#  A   a#  B   b#  C#  D   d#  E   e#
4       C#  dn  D#  E   e#  F#  fx  G#  A   a#  B   b#
5       G#  an  A#  B   b#  C#  cx  D#  E   e#  F#  fx
6       D#  en  E#  F#  fx  G#  gx  A#  B   b#  C#  cx
7       A#  bn  B#  C#  cx  D#  dx  E#  F#  fx  G#  gx


http://PianoCheetah.app - my weird piano practice program

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