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Originally Posted by RedKat
I've always been wondering whether it is possible to make a software, which would recognize the music played and turn pages automatically. It should be easier than the speech recognizing technology, so why not?


I think it appears to be easier than it actually is.

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Last October 17th Sirius/XM posted a picture of pianist Christopher Riley using a screen with his music. (You can still see the picture on the Sirius-XM Symphony Hall facebook page) In inquiring what he used they replied that he was using the EStand software and the footpedal they sell to turn the pages. It did not say what screen he was using but they sell a 20" wide screen computer with touch screen capabilities. If you look in their Online store under systems they are selling this system (screen, footswitch and software) for about $1800. At this time that would be beyond my budget but I'm interested to know if anyone else has looked into this system. I thought the fact that Christopher Riley was using it was a good recommendation. My concern is the foot switch looks a little small and I wonder if the Air Turn foot pedal would be compatible with this system.


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Originally Posted by Nonna
Last October 17th Sirius/XM posted a picture of pianist Christopher Riley using a screen with his music. (You can still see the picture on the Sirius-XM Symphony Hall facebook page) In inquiring what he used they replied that he was using the EStand software and the footpedal they sell to turn the pages. It did not say what screen he was using but they sell a 20" wide screen computer with touch screen capabilities. If you look in their Online store under systems they are selling this system (screen, footswitch and software) for about $1800. At this time that would be beyond my budget but I'm interested to know if anyone else has looked into this system. I thought the fact that Christopher Riley was using it was a good recommendation. My concern is the foot switch looks a little small and I wonder if the Air Turn foot pedal would be compatible with this system.


I'm pleased to let you know that as of a few weeks ago, Christopher O'Riley is now the proud owner - and happy user - of an AirTurn with his new iPad. He was using a Tablet PC for many years, but when he saw cellist Matt Haimowitz showing off his AirTurn and iPad system, he decided to get one for himself:

[Linked Image]

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Originally Posted by Nonna
Last October 17th Sirius/XM posted a picture of pianist Christopher Riley using a screen with his music. (You can still see the picture on the Sirius-XM Symphony Hall facebook page) In inquiring what he used they replied that he was using the EStand software and the footpedal they sell to turn the pages. It did not say what screen he was using but they sell a 20" wide screen computer with touch screen capabilities. If you look in their Online store under systems they are selling this system (screen, footswitch and software) for about $1800. At this time that would be beyond my budget but I'm interested to know if anyone else has looked into this system. I thought the fact that Christopher Riley was using it was a good recommendation. My concern is the foot switch looks a little small and I wonder if the Air Turn foot pedal would be compatible with this system.


You could get an HP Touchsmart touchscreen 20" computer for $399:

[Linked Image]
HP Omni 120z series

Be sure to choose the Bluetooth networking option if you buy this computer, so that you can add the AirTurn BT-105 page turner and MusicReader PDF 4 software package for $179:

[Linked Image]

AirTurn BT-105 with MusicReader PDF 4 for Mac and PC

Total cost: around $578-600. I think it compares well against the EStand at $1800.

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Originally Posted by Hugh Sung
Originally Posted by BruceD
Of course for every page-turn Mr. Schmidt, violinist, has to make, the pianist has to turn pages three times as often. If the pianist is accompanying a chamber work, perhaps four, five, or six times as often as any of the other performers.

Regards,


That's exactly why a hands-free page turner is so helpful for pianists!


It's also exactly why having to use your foot to find/operate the page turner every half-dozen systems could become extremely frustrating when the right foot is invariably using the damper and while the left foot - if not using the una corda - needs to be firmly planted on the floor for balance!

Regards,


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Hugh,

"... Total cost: around $578-600. I think it compares well against the EStand at $1800...."

Nah! That's still way too expensive!!! Try costing this bargain basement rig out:

1. Arnova 9 G2: An Android tablet that runs Gingerbread these are now as cheap as chips! Or check out the new Arnova 9 G3 which runs Ice Cream Sandwich (Android 4.0). These are 9.7 inch screens with 4:3 ratios.

2. MobileSheets: An Android sheet music reader application (that runs on Android 2.2 and greater). You also get a free download "PC companion", which means you can do all your edits/adding/deleting from a PC rather than on the Tablet itself (if you want). You can create set lists, custom zooms etc

3. Scythe USB dual foot pedals: (via Amazon), and yes it isn't wireless and has got a cable but what the hec! These are basically programmable pedals (there's a little Windows app that comes with them, you can set them up to fire off any keyboard character, such as page up/down). They are also as cheap as chips! Surprisingly I thought they would be tinny or plasticy, but are very solid an weighty.

4. 32Gb micro SD card (and only if you really, really need it).

Total cost is <250 ($ or £) or even less without the microSD card.

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Originally Posted by BruceD

It's also exactly why having to use your foot to find/operate the page turner every half-dozen systems could become extremely frustrating when the right foot is invariably using the damper and while the left foot - if not using the una corda - needs to be firmly planted on the floor for balance!

Regards,


I'm convinced that as long as there are trees, you will be buying paper scores. smile

Personally, as to the original question, I would use a tablet PC not necessarily with an Airturn.

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Originally Posted by Damon
Originally Posted by BruceD

It's also exactly why having to use your foot to find/operate the page turner every half-dozen systems could become extremely frustrating when the right foot is invariably using the damper and while the left foot - if not using the una corda - needs to be firmly planted on the floor for balance!

Regards,


I'm convinced that as long as there are trees, you will be buying paper scores. smile
[...]


That well may be, but given many factors, I find I'm in need of buying fewer and fewer scores any more, since I have more (paper) music in my personal library than I'll ever be able to master, and I have fairly well mastered the simple art of page-turning. I don't think I'm likely to be fingered as a violent tree-assassin.

I somewhat quail at the thought of carrying to any performance venue and having to set up a tablet and a page-turning device both of which require some sort of power source* to be functional when I could just nonchalantly (yeah, right!) walk on stage with my score in hand. Then there's the yet unproven readability factor under stage lighting since every stage is differently lit and the light sources come from different points on different stages.

That said, I'd not be unwilling to try out one such set up.

*
would you really have confidence in your tablet telling you that you have 3 hours of battery power left? I've had a laptop indicate more than three hours of battery power only to have it run out of power after about 90 minutes.


Regards,


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Originally Posted by BruceD

I somewhat quail at the thought of carrying to any performance venue and having to set up a tablet and a page-turning device both of which require some sort of power source* to be functional when I could just nonchalantly (yeah, right!) walk on stage with my score in hand. Then there's the yet unproven readability factor under stage lighting since every stage is differently lit and the light sources come from different points on different stages.

That said, I'd not be unwilling to try out one such set up.

would you really have confidence in your tablet telling you that you have 3 hours of battery power left? I've had a laptop indicate more than three hours of battery power only to have it run out of power after about 90 minutes.


Even though I use a laptop all day long, I keep it plugged in even in the car. I feel your fear. That said, I don't see why an AC power source can't be discreetly set up in most cases. Otherwise you could keep a charged secondary battery in a briefcase. I'm not familiar with the Airturn device but it seems to be a glorified mouse and should get it's needed power from the USB port. If it requires a power source other than that, I don't think I would use it.

I would also need to use it with a tablet larger than an ipad.
I would likely also keep paper scores in my briefcase laugh

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Originally Posted by EJR
Hugh,

"... Total cost: around $578-600. I think it compares well against the EStand at $1800...."

Nah! That's still way too expensive!!! Try costing this bargain basement rig out:

1. Arnova 9 G2: An Android tablet that runs Gingerbread these are now as cheap as chips! Or check out the new Arnova 9 G3 which runs Ice Cream Sandwich (Android 4.0). These are 9.7 inch screens with 4:3 ratios.

2. MobileSheets: An Android sheet music reader application (that runs on Android 2.2 and greater). You also get a free download "PC companion", which means you can do all your edits/adding/deleting from a PC rather than on the Tablet itself (if you want). You can create set lists, custom zooms etc

3. Scythe USB dual foot pedals: (via Amazon), and yes it isn't wireless and has got a cable but what the hec! These are basically programmable pedals (there's a little Windows app that comes with them, you can set them up to fire off any keyboard character, such as page up/down). They are also as cheap as chips! Surprisingly I thought they would be tinny or plasticy, but are very solid an weighty.

4. 32Gb micro SD card (and only if you really, really need it).

Total cost is <250 ($ or £) or even less without the microSD card.


Thank you. Although I don't think I could ever use anything smaller than a 12" screen. And I need a USB brain cap to read my thoughts to turn pages.

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Originally Posted by EJR
Hugh,

"... Total cost: around $578-600. I think it compares well against the EStand at $1800...."

Nah! That's still way too expensive!!! Try costing this bargain basement rig out:

1. Arnova 9 G2: An Android tablet that runs Gingerbread these are now as cheap as chips! Or check out the new Arnova 9 G3 which runs Ice Cream Sandwich (Android 4.0). These are 9.7 inch screens with 4:3 ratios.

2. MobileSheets: An Android sheet music reader application (that runs on Android 2.2 and greater). You also get a free download "PC companion", which means you can do all your edits/adding/deleting from a PC rather than on the Tablet itself (if you want). You can create set lists, custom zooms etc

3. Scythe USB dual foot pedals: (via Amazon), and yes it isn't wireless and has got a cable but what the hec! These are basically programmable pedals (there's a little Windows app that comes with them, you can set them up to fire off any keyboard character, such as page up/down). They are also as cheap as chips! Surprisingly I thought they would be tinny or plasticy, but are very solid an weighty.

4. 32Gb micro SD card (and only if you really, really need it).

Total cost is <250 ($ or £) or even less without the microSD card.


Great suggestions, but I think you missed the point that the original question was trying to find a comparable 20 inch touchscreen solution similar to what the Estand was offering, not just the cheapest/smallest one. Thanks anyway for your suggestions smile

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Originally Posted by BruceD


I somewhat quail at the thought of carrying to any performance venue and having to set up a tablet and a page-turning device both of which require some sort of power source* to be functional when I could just nonchalantly (yeah, right!) walk on stage with my score in hand. Then there's the yet unproven readability factor under stage lighting since every stage is differently lit and the light sources come from different points on different stages.

That said, I'd not be unwilling to try out one such set up.

*
would you really have confidence in your tablet telling you that you have 3 hours of battery power left? I've had a laptop indicate more than three hours of battery power only to have it run out of power after about 90 minutes.


Regards,


I hear you. I used to worry about power constantly when I was working with my older Tablet PCs with their 2-3 hour (IF that! Usually much less!) battery life. For recitals, and particularly for long audition days, I'd have to lug out my power cord and keep my Tablet PC plugged in just for safety. I loved the convenience of having all my music in one device, but I was always worried about running out of juice in the middle of a performance.

Nowadays, with the iPad's amazing battery life of 10 hours, I really don't have to carry my power cord around, and feel completely comfortable leaving it on for entire recitals without having to keep it plugged in. For long recording days, I've carried a second iPad and extra chargers just in case, but to my surprise I've never needed to replace my iPad due to power issues. And carrying a 1.5 pound iPad in my satchel sure beats having to lug 50 pounds of music through an airport or into a recording studio!!

With regard to various lighting situations, I've been in a number of performance situations ranging from concert halls, to audio recording studios, to broadcast television and video recording sessions with my digital music reading devices. Even with my older tablet pc's, I've never had any problems reading the music thanks to the backlit screens, but nowadays with the iPad (and now the iPad 3, which features a pretty amazing screen with higher resolution than HD TVs), it's amazing how clearly one can read. In acoustic audio recording situations, many times the engineer has to turn off ambient lights because they buzz - this is where backlit digital readers really shine (pun intended wink ). Broadcast and video recordings were the most extreme situations with all their bright lights, but again, I never had a problem reading my screens clearly.

Amazing how technology progresses in such a short amount of time!

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Originally Posted by Damon
I'm not familiar with the Airturn device but it seems to be a glorified mouse and should get it's needed power from the USB port. If it requires a power source other than that, I don't think I would use it.
I would likely also keep paper scores in my briefcase laugh


During my early years of experimenting with computers as digital music readers, I tried using just about every programmable foot switch or foot mouse that I could find in the market at the time. There were generally 3 main problems with those foot switches:

1. They would click audibly - you might get away with it in a live performance and the audience set back far away, but not in a professional recording situation with sensitive microphones.

2. They required programming - not a big deal if you're already comfortable with computers, but still a pain and an extra setup step.

3. They were wired - I didn't like the look of carrying all these extra cables with me (power cable, foot switch cable) on stage, and my biggest fear was accidentally unplugging the foot switch USB cable, since that would lock up the driver and force me to reboot the computer. I dreamed of finding a reliable wireless page turning pedal for years!

When coming up with the AirTurn design, we had to make sure that it addressed those three problems. Our AirTurn products are plug-and-play with no programming required, and wireless so that you don't have an ugly cable to clutter the stage - many times I hear stories from other performers about how "invisible" the AirTurn is in performance, and how audience members keep trying to guess how the pages are being turned, since no cable was in view.

The hardest thing to solve, believe it or not, was the issue of silence. We had to come up with a completely unique way to actuate a switch that didn't rely on ubiquitous reed switching technologies. The result is the ATFS-2, the most silent foot switch on the consumer market today, featuring some pretty cool rare earth technologies, cutting-edge plastics molding (developed in the USA! Yay!!), and a completely "mechanism-free" design:




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"... Great suggestions, but I think you missed the point that the original question was trying to find a comparable 20 inch touchscreen solution similar to what the Estand was offering, not just the cheapest/smallest one. ..."

I thought some might be interested in an cheap skate approach ;-)

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Originally Posted by EJR
"... Great suggestions, but I think you missed the point that the original question was trying to find a comparable 20 inch touchscreen solution similar to what the Estand was offering, not just the cheapest/smallest one. ..."

I thought some might be interested in an cheap skate approach ;-)


Hahaha! Perhaps, but I'd think carefully about investing in a cheap system if you're working professionally - playing on stage or under a microphone is stressful enough! wink

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Originally Posted by Hugh Sung

Our AirTurn products are plug-and-play with no programming required, and wireless so that you don't have an ugly cable to clutter the stage - many times I hear stories from other performers about how "invisible" the AirTurn is in performance, and how audience members keep trying to guess how the pages are being turned, since no cable was in view.


This means the AirTurn is also battery operated, right? Standard or proprietary?

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The AirTurn BT-105 Bluetooth page turner has an internal polymer-lithium rechargeable battery that works for up to 100 continuous hours per charge. With my heavy daily use for rehearsals, lessons, and performances, I typically recharge my BT-105 overnight once every two weeks.

The AirTurn AT-104 wireless USB version uses AA batteries.

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Hugh and Brendan.. you have both played the same piano in KC. If one as untalented as myself can learn to pedal on the organ....

of course i was already a good dancer


accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)
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Hugh Sung :

You make very logical and convincing arguments for your product. Thanks for the detailed observations and explanations.

Regards,


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It sounds like my problem with the screen size of the iPad will be resolved when I eventually upgrade. I am also wondering how do you handle oversized sheet music getting transferred to your iPad? As I said earlier, I'm sure I'll have no problem with the foot pedal. However, varying sheet music sizes might be pretty problematic.



Carl

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