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Re: Set pin with Cyberhammer [Re: Weiyan] #1884951
04/23/12 10:27 AM
04/23/12 10:27 AM
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double post ..

Last edited by Kamin; 04/23/12 04:18 PM.

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Re: Set pin with Cyberhammer [Re: Weiyan] #1884956
04/23/12 10:32 AM
04/23/12 10:32 AM
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Yes that is the expression of correct energy parsing, soon in the tone. That thick tone get shorter when you go in the treble that is why it is necessary to play so often there.
We want the note played enough and strong enough to obtain an almost continue thick tone (anyway to keep the focus on it) .
The difficulty then is not to forget to tune in the top end of the spectra too.

But most important for the pianist is to have a focused attack that projects the tone out of the piano (or run along the strings. All depends the kind of tone wanted)

Playing so often. Is quieter for the ear too. As tuning with the sustain pedal engaged it lessen the aggressiveness of the attack in the ear.
Just pluck some high treble strings from time to time to freshen the ear if necessary

Last edited by Kamin; 04/23/12 03:53 PM.

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Re: Set pin with Cyberhammer [Re: Olek] #1885080
04/23/12 02:00 PM
04/23/12 02:00 PM
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shirley, MA
jim ialeggio Offline
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Originally Posted by Kamin
Y As tuning with the sustain pedal engaged it lessen the agressivity of the attack inthe ear.


Isaac,

Are you saying you are tuning the high treble notes with the sustain pedal pressed? Interesting.

How does that lessen the aggressiveness of the attack?


Jim Ialeggio
www.grandpianosolutions.com
advanced soundboard and action redesigns
978 425-9026
Shirley Center, MA
Re: Set pin with Cyberhammer [Re: Loren D] #1885133
04/23/12 03:41 PM
04/23/12 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Loren D


PR? Ok, never mind then! I posted a video trying to help showing how I tune a unison with an impact lever. If you need to see it 88 times, just watch it 88 times as the procedure is the same.



I won't believe in the possibility of tuning with one of these until I see someone do it successfully. It took a while for you to set that unison so watching it 88 times doesn't give a clear picture. The Cyberhammer comes with a video of it being used but the vid just shows someone flicking the string up, down and all over the place.


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Re: Set pin with Cyberhammer [Re: jim ialeggio] #1885135
04/23/12 03:41 PM
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Not exactly, Jim, in the high treble you are yet tuning as if the pedal was engaged because there are no dampers an octave below. The notes reacting there are relatively easily perceived)

But if the ears are tired you can tune a few notes with the sustain pedal engaged, it fullfill the ear with tone and the abrupt tone of the attack dives in )

It also helps rendering, the whole piano having much energy spread.
I had a colleague that locked the pedal with a mute and tuned in that configuration a good part of the piano.

It makes the piano sing much, but it is not as precise than with the dampers (the octaves tend to enlarge for instance) he used upper M3ds in the octave and tests with intervals 2 octaves below (1st inversion major/minor) all that with sustain pedal engaged at 2/3.

The tone is really juicy when well done, he pretends that he was doing so when he was tired indeed the tone of the piano get more pleasing, may be the reason initially why the used that trick. it kind of "wake up" the soundboard, I believe.


That said, as an experiment, it is fun to try to find the correct spot of consonance on one string using the pedal to free the rest of the instrument. it is not as evident as one can believe but you can hear, a place where the tone get richer. (what is fun is that I often hear it with notes normally damped but that is due to the 12/15 relation I use)

Last edited by Kamin; 04/23/12 04:13 PM.

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Re: Set pin with Cyberhammer [Re: Olek] #1885207
04/23/12 05:22 PM
04/23/12 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Kamin
Not exactly, Jim, in the high treble you are yet tuning as if the pedal was engaged because there are no dampers an octave below. The notes reacting there are relatively easily perceived)


Just trying to get past the language thing...

So if I understand what (I think) you are saying, playing the high treble note often when tuning makes the coupling with the ocatve below easier to percieve. It gives the impression of a more sustained high treble tone while tuning that note. Is this the jist of what you are saying?

Jim Ialeggio


Jim Ialeggio
www.grandpianosolutions.com
advanced soundboard and action redesigns
978 425-9026
Shirley Center, MA
Re: Set pin with Cyberhammer [Re: Jbyron] #1885209
04/23/12 05:23 PM
04/23/12 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Jbyron
Originally Posted by Loren D


PR? Ok, never mind then! I posted a video trying to help showing how I tune a unison with an impact lever. If you need to see it 88 times, just watch it 88 times as the procedure is the same.



I won't believe in the possibility of tuning with one of these until I see someone do it successfully. It took a while for you to set that unison so watching it 88 times doesn't give a clear picture. The Cyberhammer comes with a video of it being used but the vid just shows someone flicking the string up, down and all over the place.


Suit yourself. smile


DiGiorgi Piano Service
http://www.digiorgipiano.com
Re: Set pin with Cyberhammer [Re: Loren D] #1885278
04/23/12 07:19 PM
04/23/12 07:19 PM
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Fair enough.


Tuner-Technician


Re: Set pin with Cyberhammer [Re: jim ialeggio] #1885420
04/24/12 01:32 AM
04/24/12 01:32 AM
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Originally Posted by jim ialeggio
Originally Posted by Kamin
Not exactly, Jim, in the high treble you are yet tuning as if the pedal was engaged because there are no dampers an octave below. The notes reacting there are relatively easily perceived)


Just trying to get past the language thing...

So if I understand what (I think) you are saying, playing the high treble note often when tuning makes the coupling with the ocatve below easier to percieve. It gives the impression of a more sustained high treble tone while tuning that note. Is this the jist of what you are saying?
Jim Ialeggio


eh I apologize being not as precise. In the end I believe those are twoo things different : playing at the good speed allows to listen to the most important part of tone. And at the same time as more energy is availeable, reaction from an octave below or whatever interval below reacting is more audible in the note we are tuning.
Also playing often is less hard on the ears.


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Re: Set pin with Cyberhammer [Re: Jbyron] #1885440
04/24/12 02:51 AM
04/24/12 02:51 AM
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Weiyan Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Jbyron
Originally Posted by Loren D


PR? Ok, never mind then! I posted a video trying to help showing how I tune a unison with an impact lever. If you need to see it 88 times, just watch it 88 times as the procedure is the same.



I won't believe in the possibility of tuning with one of these until I see someone do it successfully. It took a while for you to set that unison so watching it 88 times doesn't give a clear picture. The Cyberhammer comes with a video of it being used but the vid just shows someone flicking the string up, down and all over the place.


I do believe it can tune unison, depends how you define unison.

After learning from this thread, I tune my piano to have even tone. Today I just finish tuning a K-8, no pitch raise, but still take two hours. For spending time in correcting tones.

I think friends here have different perspective of unison!



Working on:\

J.S.Bach Prelude in C Min: No. 2 from Six Preludes fur Anfanger auf dem
Am Abend No. 2 from Stimmungsbilder, Op. 88
60s Swing No. 1 from Swinging Rhythms
http://weiyanwo.wordpress.com
Re: Set pin with Cyberhammer [Re: Weiyan] #1886416
04/25/12 02:52 PM
04/25/12 02:52 PM
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This piano was tuned 6 months ago with the Cyberhammer. The unisons, after 6 months, show that the pins were set. http://soundcloud.com/ldigiorgi/6-months-after-a-tuning


DiGiorgi Piano Service
http://www.digiorgipiano.com
Re: Set pin with Cyberhammer [Re: Weiyan] #1886735
04/26/12 01:55 AM
04/26/12 01:55 AM
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Weiyan Offline OP
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Loren,

Thank you.

From the beginning of this thread, I stated cyberhammer can setpin, but some technique required. Its not as advertised, just tune to pitch, then the pin is set.

Later posts here may be out of topic. They are discussing hearing tone change while pulling the hammer. The unisons may different with this approach.

I still waiting some Cyberhammer expert to demonstrate tuning unisons, for the tone of notes are uniform. Sorry for this request which is outside pin setting.


Working on:\

J.S.Bach Prelude in C Min: No. 2 from Six Preludes fur Anfanger auf dem
Am Abend No. 2 from Stimmungsbilder, Op. 88
60s Swing No. 1 from Swinging Rhythms
http://weiyanwo.wordpress.com
Re: Set pin with Cyberhammer [Re: Weiyan] #1886795
04/26/12 06:31 AM
04/26/12 06:31 AM
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HI yes most of my post where OT there but it was on the definition of "unison". I am happy you had understand that.

A good unison lenghten the tone and makes it nice and lively. It also allows to play strong with no saturation.

That is mostly an energy question, those days I try to find if I can manipulate tone for instance towards a more close and intimate tone with the external strings having a tendency to be lo, on the opposite of the normal which is the external strings have a tendency to be a hair high.

When plucking the 3 strings of a stabilized unison, this "pitch" difference is easily noticed. I would tend to believe that the strings install themselves in that configuration naturally as long as the é outer strings are coupling, so it is possibly not impossible to obtain that even with the cyber hammer if this is the intention, and the concept is well understood from the start (having the coupling make the tone jump out of the piano !) nevertheless the level of precision of the manipulation of the pin is really so thin to play with the coupling of partials and build the tone, that I doubt it can be done with enough eveness from note to note.

The fun (and not so funny in the end) is that this implies a totally different way to listen and appreciate the tone, than the one we tend to when we only have "pitch" in mind.

A brutal tone with the 3 strings locking immediately provide some kind of saturation that is probably good for salsa, rock an roll or any percussive music, but to me the tones lack "fundation" or settlement. So it is difficult to build musical phrasing and nuances, only very good pianists can do so.
I recall a concert piano I tuned with those kind of unisons for a competition.

The first pianist who played was probably nervous, and the piano had a so bad tone that I hear it as being false.
I begun to be nervous myself...
The second pianist was a very good one, and was able to catch the energy of the attack and use it whith a more large use of the sustain pedal , so the tone begin to sing enough. Then the piano sounded in tune.

A nicely tuned piano from the start will help way more the instrumentalist, accepting more touch mistakes, a little like those Kawai pianos that have a so mellow tone you can play hard they send you a civil tone.

Anyway, it is not as easy or simple to learn to get a natural piano tone constructed, particularly if you are used to listen differently. It took me some time and it was disturbing.

You are on the good track trying top even the tone from note to note, that proves that you get the concept. Some pianos are easier to deal with, others have a very rich attack it is not easy to domestic into something more rounded. But generally speaking if you have enough energy the tone is easier to build, hence the importance of voicing.

In fact if you tune 3 strings at the higher level of precision of an EDT, you get a tone that looks very "pure" at first, but it does not accept to be played strong then you notice a lot of strange lemonish moaning between partials because they have not be regulated and they go where they want.
If you use the EDT to give you a pitch idea, then the other notes to couple and regulate the partials, the tone will be more civil. AN experienced tuner regulates the length and strength from note to note, correcting unevenness up to some point. After that it is a voicing issue or a scaling question.

Playing the note enough and at a good strength is so important because it allows the tuner to regulate the stabilization time, hence to "tune the attack".
It is not possible if the notes are not played enough, the ear closes as a reaction to the harsh and hard tones of the attack; that is also why it is important to be well aware of the playing hand (or to imagine the hammer head bumping on the wire) it distract the brain from its tendency to close the ear and wait for a quieter tone to tune.

Again OT, I am really sorry I cannot refrain ...

I'll make some videos.. promised

The 3 wires of a note are rarely the same lenght, most often it is done voluntarily. Using agrafes allow for more eveness hence a different tone, see Petrof verticals for instance.
look at the orientation of the bridge pins or measure the lenght between right and left string.
Even with agrafes, as on Bechstein grands the lenght is purposely left different.
I dont know how much it may influence the IH and partials pitch, but it lenghten the coupling time.


















Last edited by Kamin; 04/26/12 06:43 AM.

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Re: Set pin with Cyberhammer [Re: Weiyan] #1886838
04/26/12 08:47 AM
04/26/12 08:47 AM
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Kamin,

Thank you.

The tone variation in bass is easier to listen.

Tune to attack, my understanding is focus listening to attack. Then also listen to the tail. Just tried F3 and G3. Listen to attack, when its ok, then listen to sustain. When both is oK, I feel energy stored on attack. The sustain is mellow, there is more higher edge frequency. There is an envelop like a long deep breath. At first glance, it like beat. Haven't retune whole piano yet, the effect on harmony is unknown.

I don't sure if I my observation is correct. Waiting for your videos.


Working on:\

J.S.Bach Prelude in C Min: No. 2 from Six Preludes fur Anfanger auf dem
Am Abend No. 2 from Stimmungsbilder, Op. 88
60s Swing No. 1 from Swinging Rhythms
http://weiyanwo.wordpress.com
Re: Set pin with Cyberhammer [Re: Weiyan] #1886846
04/26/12 08:57 AM
04/26/12 08:57 AM
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A tuning pin can be set using any kind of tuning hammer provided the person behind the hammer knows what they are doing. Just because one person can't do it, doesn't mean, that it cannot be done. Raising pitch 1/2 tone and fine tuning in 40 minutes is a good example. Loren can do that too as can I and many others. Learning to set the pin, in my opinion, is the most difficult part of tuning to learn. It takes hundreds of tunings, perhaps, a thousand or more before one can set it well or, well enough....


Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.
Re: Set pin with Cyberhammer [Re: Jerry Groot RPT] #1886862
04/26/12 09:30 AM
04/26/12 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Jerry Groot RPT
A tuning pin can be set using any kind of tuning hammer provided the person behind the hammer knows what they are doing. Just because one person can't do it, doesn't mean, that it cannot be done. Raising pitch 1/2 tone and fine tuning in 40 minutes is a good example. Loren can do that too as can I and many others. Learning to set the pin, in my opinion, is the most difficult part of tuning to learn. It takes hundreds of tunings, perhaps, a thousand or more before one can set it well or, well enough....


Agree Cyberhammer can set pin, the first post had already stated clear. The purpose of this thread was to ask for the set pin technique of Cyberhammer. Later posts shift to tone building. Before this experiment, I believed Cyberhammer does not need to pay attention to set pin. May be this is due to my misinterpretation of the advertisements.

May be I am only one person cannot use Cyberhammer to tune a whole piano. For lowest note and highest note, there seems no place for Cyberhammer.


Working on:\

J.S.Bach Prelude in C Min: No. 2 from Six Preludes fur Anfanger auf dem
Am Abend No. 2 from Stimmungsbilder, Op. 88
60s Swing No. 1 from Swinging Rhythms
http://weiyanwo.wordpress.com
Re: Set pin with Cyberhammer [Re: Weiyan] #1886867
04/26/12 09:43 AM
04/26/12 09:43 AM
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On the recording I posted, the notes were bumped right up to pitch and left there. In occasion if I went SLIGHTLY past the note, I bumped slightly down. If more than very slight though, I went back down and started again. There was no conscious setting the pin though, as there is when I tune with the Fujan. The Cyberhammer seems, in most cases, to move the whole pin at once, or at least to right itself after moving due to the rebound.


DiGiorgi Piano Service
http://www.digiorgipiano.com
Re: Set pin with Cyberhammer [Re: Weiyan] #1886878
04/26/12 10:09 AM
04/26/12 10:09 AM
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I think a big part of the problem is not trusting the lever/method, kind of like how people using a GPS still end up getting lost because they don't trust the gps enough to follow it.


DiGiorgi Piano Service
http://www.digiorgipiano.com
Re: Set pin with Cyberhammer [Re: Weiyan] #1886905
04/26/12 10:59 AM
04/26/12 10:59 AM
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Yes, unisons can be tuned with the Cyberhammer, but it is not a useful tool for pitch raising or tuning tight pins. You can't get enough power to move the pin efficiently with it.

I have yet to see anyone pitch raise with one.


Tuner-Technician


Re: Set pin with Cyberhammer [Re: Loren D] #1886927
04/26/12 11:42 AM
04/26/12 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Loren D
I think a big part of the problem is not trusting the lever/method, kind of like how people using a GPS still end up getting lost because they don't trust the gps enough to follow it.
A tuner may learn to trust his ears and this is not so easy.
For pin setting lot of training is necessary but a clear understanding of the process helps a lot.
That aspect is not included in the curses I have seen rhe content.
The book "different strokes" provides a good explanation of the bases in 4 pages at the beginni.g of the book but I never find explanations on unisons. The tone and how it can be worked are a big secret without real investigations.
Structure reaction is never evaluated. Like if things could be separated in small bricks without a view on the complete wall.



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I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
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