Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum Bobble on my new Kawai

I took lessons for 2 years when I was in my twenties and I have started back again after 35 + years. I had a second hand piano for about 20 years which I was happy with except recently the sound at the break, a twang made me nuts. I tried two techs to voice this out but one recommended to just buy a new piano. We went out to a couple of places and thought the K3 Kawia was nice and bought it. From what I am reading this probably was not a good thing, choosing so quickly.

Anyway this new Kawai is giving me some trouble with bobble on some lower notes. I find this really disturbing. None of the other pianos I have ever played (about four), have never done this. The piano in the store did not do this. The Tech for the store and my teacher don't think this is a big thing. As a beginner on one particular piece, I am concentrating so hard not to bobble I can't hit the right keys or get any kind of expression. Any thing I should know or do?

Issues like this are not uncommon in new pianos (particularly those that haven't seen much dealer prep), and are usually sorted out pretty easily at the first service appointment-- be sure to mention the issue to the technician when the appointment is booked.

Am I to understand that you didn't buy the floor model piano? If you liked the model in the store, it is often wiser to buy that exact piano as it's already been tuned and sorted out to some degree (prepped); these pianos may have fewer problems in the first year than one that came straight out of a crate.

What is bobbling? I apologize in advance for my ignorance.

(Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but) It's when you play a key once, and the hammer bounces on the string multiple times, usually in rapid succession.

I've sometimes heard it in such a rhythm that it actually seems to fit with the particular piece of music being played. I might even occasionally use it myself to my advantage, after getting a "feel" for how that particular piano behaves.

Usually with just about ANY piano, I can usually find *some* way to get some notes to bobble. (The most common way for me, at least on a vertical, seems to be playing a staccato note, releasing VERY quickly - lifting finger off key while the hammer is still traveling to the string - momentum should carry the hammer to the string, by which time the key has returned to its rest position. Key momentum may cause it to bounce back down a little, hammer returning bounces off jack (or however it might work) and hits string again, or something like that, I think.)

EDIT: Speaking of playing technique... I can't remember the name of something, or the syntax for notating it in sheet music. Basically, I'm talking about playing a staccato chord, then after releasing the keys and before the sound completely dies away, depressing the sustain pedal. The intended effect would be to have the chord sound loud very briefly, die away quickly, then when the sustain "catches" it, it continues sustaining longer at a much lower (initially -30 to -50 dB from peak for example starting 0.2 to 0.4 seconds after the note is played) volume. What is that technique called (I've heard the name "catch pedaling" thrown about), and how would it be notated? Would it be reasonable to expect any 88-note digital piano with a street price over $350 to be able to do it? (An example would be a Casio PX-330 which I don't own, but I often have an opportunity to play it when my friends have it at camps I sometimes go to.)

Hi this not a serious issue. I think you are referring to double striking. This is a regulation problem and not a warranty issue; however "I think" Kawai North America may cover this under warranty as a courtesy.
It's likely to be that the keys don't have enough key depth and therefore if you don't play with enough force there is not an appropriate escapement. The jack stays half way under the hammer-butt and the hammer-butt bounces off the jack before the back-check catches the hammer.
There are other reason to this problem such as let-off occurring too close to the strings and other aspects of regulation.
However the most common I’ve seen with K-3 right out the box is not enough key-depth. The fix is relatively easy by shimming the action balance rail pins. It is not likely to be the key-punching felt. (edited)

Any competent technician should be able to fix it; Kawai also provides assistance over the telephone to the piano tech.

Regards,

What do you mean, "shimming the action rail pins?"
The way I know of to increase key dip is to remove front rail punchings.

I had this problem intermittently on my K3. It has a very fast repeat so it could be that it was just slightly "off" and got "fixed" during a tuning. But I suspect, given that it only happened on my left hand, that my technique improved. I think my finger was bobbling.

I'm not saying that is your problem but it's worth investigating.

Sorry I wrote action rail...I meant balance rail pins.
Paper-washers are inserted into the balance rail pins. The keys are bearing on these paper washers. If they are missing you don't have enough key depth.

Thank you all for weighing in on my "bobble" problem. I think the last responder was close. It has something to do with my left hand fingers not pressing down the keys to the bottom.
I'm a little lost with the terms you are using so I'll just try to use simple descriptions.

My Tech wanted to install a lighter touch for me which I'm not sure will work either. I have a chronic condition that inflames my joints and can cause swelling and stiffness, which of course affects how much pressure I can apply with my fingers.

I'll call him and discuss the options presented. More ideas are always very welcome.

Thanks again,
Brooke

This is a problem common to many lower end pianos. They are not properly regulated out of the factory. In an effort to make lower cost pianos, many companies I feel just don't finish building the pianos before they leave the factory and it is up to the dealership to finish regulating the piano. In some cases the wood shrinks on some pianos when cheaper materials are used and causes the keys to actually get smaller. (Kawai's Keys are actually wood, however the whippens are man made materials) You only need very small changes to effect an actions regulation. In an effort to make more money, some dealerships may not do the critical prep needed on these instruments. We make sure every piano we sell gets the proper regulation and prep needed. Typically putting in additional punchings on the center rail pin is the answer. However, this will throw off the regulation typically and will need to be addressed as well. It is, in my opinion, the responsibility of the dealership that sold you the piano. Kawai WILL NOT cover this under warranty, they will refer to it as Dealer Prep. This is the response typical of all Piano Manufacturers, maybe save Charles Walter. (But you would never see this in one of their pianos anyway) Good luck with your piano and perhaps to save your investment you may want to consider a damp-chaser system to regulate the humidity in this piano, since it may be very susceptible to humidity changes.
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This is a case of a piano being sold and not properly prepped by the dealer. Fairly typical of all pianos sold. My 2 pianos suffered the same fate until I created a storm over the state of my grand and finally got something done.

Why not remove punchings from the front rail? That way you wouldn't have to touch the capstans, at least.

Monaco, it is nice to see that you have some technical knowledge that you are itching to share.
Considering this situation - an adult returning to playing after a long hiatus, buying a new piano, this is really bad advice to give.

If the new piano is not performing as designed, it is a warranty issue, period. If a layperson gets in there trying to fix it, they cannot expect the dealer's technician to un-do their "work" on a warranty claim. In other words, if you "fix" it first, it can become expensive. Take it though the proper channels - the dealer, his tech etc.

Jurgen,

The structure of Monaco's posts shows that he wasn't giving "advice to the OP", and neither was he "itching" to share technical information. Rather, his quotes make it quite clear that he was responding (with questions) to other technical suggestions that had already been made by Kurtmen and Enrico. If this is about following the right channels (dealer, his tech), then why then berate Monaco, but not the other two, for giving "really bad advice"?

(I would hate to think that you did so because his signature says he's the only beginner tech between the three of them.)

What's good for the goose, is bad for the gosling?

The thrust of my message was (and is) that in this kind of situation it is not a good idea (for the customer or the piano) to give a lay-person tips on how to tear into the action to try to "fix" such a problem on a new piano under warranty.

In this kind of thread, as soon as one person suggests a "repair" based on their hunch, others immediately feel compelled to jump in and add their two cents' worth. On this forum, technical advice is often dispensed by those who know a little, which of course is a dangerous thing.

If people want to discuss how to solve problems of bobbling hammers, this is probably best done on the Technicians Forum. Actually, it has been discussed a number of times and there is probably very little to add. It is all in the archives. The danger here is to go off on a tangent and ignore the original question.

The OP asked "Any thing I should know or do?"
The proper answer to that and best advice is, to talk to the dealer about it, as any adjustments a layperson can do will probably make things worse instead of better, for all concerned.

Oh No! I wasn't suggesting that the customer do this! Not at all!


I was simply wondering if someone had some knowledge to share with me about the easiest way to remedy the problem. I had been taught to remove punchings at the front rail in order to increase key dip, not increase key height at the balance rail. Do you feel this is accurate?

Sorry if I gave the wrong impression.

To the OP. Contact your dealer. Ask them to fix it.

Stop talking about me, Jurgen. (Just kidding… no I’m not )

You are right, of course. “If the shoe fits…”

Rick

Thank you all for the lively discussion and advice. I went back to the store and tried the piano on the floor, a K3. The touch was comfortable and there was no bobble. It may sound funny but the keys on my piano feel like they are pushing my fingers back up, the one the floor did not.
I called Kawai and talked to them. They suggested basically what Kurtman had said in his post. Kawai is going to talk to the store/Tech and it is on them. So let's see what happens next.

I didn't think about it but that was a good suggestion to check the archives.

That was actually quite clear. (Well, at least to me it was, which is why I wrote my post above.)

Anyhow, hoping that the OP will be helped.