Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Pianist Corner Etude op. 10 no. 4

I don't think constantly hogging the conversation is positive. In face to face situations, few people would want to have conversations with that type of person. I'ts one of the problems of the internet age.

PL: Show me a sentence that you think was superfluous, and I'm pretty sure I'll be able easily show you why it wasn't.

(If you decline, you admit defeat.)


Apple: Thank you!

Sounds like a pre teen talking.

You lose.

And that's typical of what you do: You criticize, but you don't follow through.


Here's another deal: How about confining posts to contributions to the subject, rather than trash-talk of other people's posts.

oh, and welcome UrLicht to the forum.

I'm impressed with all who tackle this ridiculous etude. I played it for about a week and said 'never again'.

You mean like this last post of yours didn't do?

You're absolutely right about that.

These posts are a waste -- except that they're helping to lay you bare for the occasional trolling that you do, and so perhaps they'll get you to stop doing it.

If so, they're no waste.


How about keeping the posts to the subject. That seems reasonable, doesn't it?
That's what we were doing, till you came on and trash-talked, and here we are.....

Okay, so this is apparently the consensus-- the mutual opinion that started the whole argument!
I'm being careful not to name names...

Mostly yes, except that the part about holding "as long as possible" isn't a consensus. I'd say that the guidepost is almost the opposite: you get off the key as soon as you can, with still achieving the sound that you want on the note.

UrLicht - getting back to your original post… I believe your comment that your fingers "get confused" is a clue to the real problem you're having with the first passage. It is something of a brain-twister. I believe part of the problem (or maybe even the main problem) is that there is a conflict between rhythmic groups and hand-positions. It helps to analyze these things carefully when trying to problem solve.

Here's an illustration:



The red boxes indicate hand positions - the notes that can be played with the hand held in one position (the left hand positions change in sync with the RH). See how they don't line up with the rhythmic groups? They are off by one 16th. This kind of conflict can muddle the brain.

I suggested above practicing the notes that fall on the main beats as block chords. Upon further investigation, which reveals this mis-match, I suggest practicing this way:



I would first play through this several times, slowly, then alternate between this block reduction and playing the passage as written, again slowly for a while. Notice also that the hand position does NOT change on the very last beat.

One other thing to notice is that the thumb plays on a black note once in the LH, and once in the RH and they do so on different beats:



First the LH, then the RH. The hands will move forward slightly, and it can be helpful to notice that they don't coincide and which hand goes first.

Hope this helps.

I think that as Marc said, the sound is what's important. Those quarter notes all have accents on them, and if you play the accent correctly, you've accomplished what is needed, that is, to bring out that top line. At speed, you won't hear any difference whether you hold the note or not, as long as you accent it properly. In cases like this, I often play the line that needs to be brought out on its own just so I have a clear idea of what I need to be hearing once the rest is all in place.

I think Marc's posts are well-informed and very helpful, he seems to be very knowledgeable. I'm just amazed at how ubiquitous he is on these forums! Do you post from work, Marc?

Thanks, richter! And no -- I don't even have internet at the office. I just have unusual work hours.
(And I do a lot of my work from home, where I take 'occasional' breaks to see what going on online.)

Of course I'm glad that you agree with the thrust of what I've said. But how interesting it is that we have essentially opposite views, by people who know something -- some of whom (including me) think the other side is completely wrong.

Such is it with art.

Chopin wrote the top notes as quarter notes besides with an accent, not just an accent on those notes. IMO one should hold the notes as long as one can(two or preferably three 16ths)and still be able to play the passage. I don't think anyone is advocating holding the note for an entire quarter note as playing the passage would be impossible at full speed.

Simply untrue.

Two more pionts I must make about this whole issue of whether or not to hold those quarter notes. First, if you have the technique to master this etude, I doubt seriously that holding them for a reasonable amount of time (again, yes, of course you have to lift before the end of the beat to be able to play the next quarter note) is going to pose a serious difficulty. Second, IMO the assumption that not holding them makes the passage easier to play is a completely arbitrary one. One could argue just the opposite.

No, you couldn't.

Maybe tell us how?

It's clearly more difficult to do stuff when a finger is busy still holding down a note than when it isn't.

If not, please tell us how. I will have learned something that I thought defied the laws of physics and anatomy.

why would you NOT hold those quarter notes down for their full value.. they sound GREAT, they reduce the hand span to size that allows the fingers to swirl around another. I don't see where it is difficult

Gads... i have been spending too much time on this once rejected etude. I haven't practiced too much these last four years. My hands have deteriorated while my understanding has improved. fun

It constrains the ability of the hand to do the rest of what's going on. There is no way (none) that the hand is as free to do the rest of it when you're holding down that key as when you aren't.

And that's even aside from the obvious thing of it being impossible anyway to hold them down for "their full value" (as you put it) because of the jump to the next chord that would be required.

Plus there's no advantage.
(What do you think is the advantage?)

The advantage is that it sounds better when you hold it a tiny bit more? Mark C you make so many posts trying to tell people that it's the sound that matters not how long you hold the note blah blah and keep on arguing. If it's more difficult to hold the notes down, but not impossible, then holding them down longer trains dexterity better. I think it's useful to build "quasi legato" technique in a place like this; If you can stay in control of the rest of the fingers while your pinky is moving quickly and precisely, that's a great thing.

The reason why people are saying you should hold it for how long is not because they consider it blasphemy to not hold notes that the score suggests you hold, but because in general it will sound better if held longer. Every piano has a different note decay of course but how long you hold always makes a difference.

I said it should best be held at least a bit more!

That's not the debate.


A lot of it is to correct misunderstandings, like the one you just made.

We agree -- but apparently without your realizing it.
And you're disagreeing (apparently) with the same people I'm disagreeing with. They're saying it's important to hold it down much longer than what you said.