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Your system comes apart here,I'm afraid.

"C9" labels what you refer to as a Major 9th chord. C7 (major chord with a flat 7th added) plus the major 9th.

"Cmaj9" is the label for a Cmaj7 chord (C major triad plus the MAJOR 7th) plus the major 9th.

Maybe you are searching for reasons to disagree with me? And when you can't find any, you manufacture them?

I have searched my posts quite thoroughly, and do not find the "Cmaj9" naming, with which you take issue. I invite you to point it out if you like.

You and I both know that if the "maj" abbreviation appears immediately after the root name, that refers to the seventh of the chord. Likewise, we both know very well that if the "min" abbreviation appears immediately after the root name, that refers to the third of the chord - to the base triad itself. I am guessing that this level of detail is only going to be confusing to Mr. Tango at his stage of chord understanding. After all, he asked about ONE chord.

As far as "my system" coming apart, first of all it is not "my system", but a rather universal method for building or spelling traditional chords. I prefer it, because it does have the advantage of incorporating quartals, quintals, tone clusters, and even some polytonality and serial rows, without "coming apart".

I have mentioned many times that there are no perfect or
complete, all-encompassing methods for analyzing harmonic structures or movement. This intervals-above-a-common-root system, however, works fine for teaching intermediate harmony and chord construction.

To go one step further, if anything is breaking down or causing confusion among those of us who know this stuff, it is lack of precision in the NAMING of the various flavors of chords, starting with the Fb9. That is why, if there is any chance of ambiguity, I prefer the use of parenthesis -- Fb(9); B9(maj7); Fm7(b5); Ab9(+5).

Anyway, I tried. Where is Tango, by the way?

Show me a published chart that says Fb9
It's nonsense, imo.

This is a straw man:


Where is the problem? (Checking...)

The only thing I can see here is that there is a problem with the written out label "major ninth chords". I don't see anything wrong about the rest of what Ed presented.

The "elephant in the room" here is that all intervals "measured" from the root are major, by default, except for the 7, which is minor by default.

For students this concept is very hard. It was for me, before I understood the logic.

I teach as a default:

X9 = X 3 5 7 9. 3 is a minor 7 by definition. So C D G Bb D.

You can do this, obviously, with any root. Fb Ab Cb Ebb Gb. Correct, but messy.

Most people are saying to convert, enharmonically: E G# B D F#.

The question about *maj* is a separate point. It has nothing to do with the OPs question.

I have a different point to make.

Tango was here on April 11th, a bit before 7 PM, my time. Since he has not returned, the thread is ours to do with as we please.

Why should we care?

That is not a sarcastic answer. So far as I am concerned any topic started by someone may take on a life of its own. If the OPer returns and says, "Help, what happened to my question?" then we can jump back in and say, "Oops, let's get back to your question and see if we can answer it simply."

The problem was your label, "major nine chord". I immediately thought of Cmaj9, which is the notation I would go to by default. I have in my hands at this moment the book "All the Right Changes", by Dick Hyman. I have not looked at this in over a decade, but I immediately found:

EbMa9.

I prefer Eb maj9, with the "maj" written high, but his intent is obvious.

This seems clear to me. I would only mention that "m" is just as common as "min", probably more so. I personally prefer "m" for a minor 3rd and "maj" for a major 7th. But that is only my habit.

I feel the same way. I suppose the real question is what "non-classical" means to people here...

All those are clear to me except this one: B9(maj7).

That causes a brain freeze. By the time I see B9 my hands have already formed for that chord or that harmony, then I have to revise it by adjusting 7 to M7. There I would much prefer Bmaj9. If parentheses. Even for a flat root (like Bb) I would still go with: Bbmaj9.

But the thing that is so cool about the letter notation is that it is extremely flexible.

Non-classical conventions are valuable to a discussion in the non-classical forum. For example, Cmaj9 will have a B natural in the chord. C9 means the 7th is flatted - if it's played. Everything Gary D posted is correct. We haven't even gotten into "swing eights." Miles Davis once said, "Just play it. We'll figure out what to call it later." That pretty much sums it up. Oh, and I eagerly await the published chart requested by Jazz+.

Nines or 9s are really interesting because they are the same pitches as 2s, and it is not always clear how to label them.

C D E G is REALLY common. I label that as C add2. It's a pretty new thing if Debussy is new, since his music is full of such sounds.

C D G I label as: Csus2. C D F G: C sus 4/2 or C 4/2 sus.

But when you have C E G *** D, with the 7 left out, IF I have to be specific:

C add9

The point is to make the labeling fit the music, not make the music fit the labels!!!

Yes, Gary, AND --

Once we venture into blanket rules like this one, the learner is still not out of the complexity woods. To be complete, here we need to address intervals that are usually perfect or prime (4th, 5th, 11th, etc.) So, in addition to your "seventh flat by default", we need to add that all intervals that COULD BE perfect, are perfect by default, unless otherwise altered.


I am not certain why everyone is quoting this out of context. As plain as day, here is what I wrote:

For Tango’s sake, I was making the distinction between chords based upon minor triads, the previous paragraph, and those based upon major triads.


===========================

I generally dislike repeating (or re-writing) myself, but I would like to remind everyone on the thread that the (F flat) 9th was brought up as the subject of this thread - I did not invent it, I was simply hoping to explain it.

In reality, this chord that has stirred up so much debate, is nothing more than a sound in the air. Somehow, Tango bumbled onto this Fb9 description, and that description can be decoded. But whether we call it (F flat) ninth, or E ninth, or (D double-sharp) ninth, or Ab half-diminished seventh slash E, or any number of other things, those are all simply descriptors, and as such, are not the sound itself. As long as these descriptors do not violate or contradict basic, tonal theory, then any one is not any more correct than the next.

I would also say, to all those learned individuals who are calling for the diagram or spelling of this chord in some published chart, that if you need a chart to look up chords of this type, you are way out of your depth. .

Ed

I would attempt to diffuse the volatility a bit by pointing out that when Jazz+ said this...


I believe he was using the common vernacular of jazz musicians (and many others) who refer to printed sheet music, either lead sheets or full scores, as "charts."

Ed, what caused the flap was treating the chord explanation like we were over in the classical pianists' forum. We aren't; we're in the NON-classical forum. Mr Tango needed a generally-accepted-in-the- blues-genre explanation so that he is not hooted off the bandstand when he calls out "F-flat!" at his next blues jam.

A quote from Ed's post above: "As long as these descriptors do not violate or contradict basic, tonal theory, then any one is not any more correct than the next. " to which the modifier is or should be: "unless you are trying to communicate with blues players."

I'm still waiting for the answer to Jazz+'s request for a chart with an F-flat chord in it.

Not trying to start anything, just trying to add some common sense.

OOPS!!! That was really dumb of me. Yes, everything but the 7th is major or PERFECT, by default. 4 and 5 is perfect, so 11 is too.

Yes, but your "plain as day" explanation started out with "major ninth chords". For the same reason I just acknowledged, above, that I left out something critical, so did you. You are clearly DEFINING the concept of adding extra notes to a major chord. But I am telling you for a fact that the moment I hear "major nine chord", I immediately think of: Xmaj9. It is visceral. So I have to read past your label, then get to the definition. I am very careful in my teaching to state, clearly, that either a major or minor chord may have any number of additional notes or "color tones" added. I would always say "major chords with an added ninth". I am not nitpicking. In my world any inconsistency in how I explain things to students will cause a train-wreck. If I start off with any phrase that is non-standard, then FOLLOW it with another phrase that makes my first usage clear, I see glazed-over eyes.

Now, having said that, I was not the person who nitpicked your choice of words. That was "The Exalted One". Did he really misunderstand you? Or was he just posting to score "gotcha-points"?

Most likely you will not get an answer. I have never gotten one from him.

And you ran into the chasm between "classical musicians" and "non-classical musicians". I live in both worlds, so what you were writing about was crystal clear to me.

I think here "chart" means "jazz chart".

http://www.opus28.co.uk/decipheringchords.pdf

I think the chances of finding Fb9 in a pop chart is zero, and finding one in any jazz chart is somewhere between extremely unlikely and zero also.

Of course you can have an answer!

I don't think I misunderstood what was meant. I just pointed out that it was in error.

There is a chord, written as "Cmaj9" and spoken of as "C major 9" which consists of the major triad, major 7th and major 9th.

Using "C major 9" to refer to a quite different chord, with a minor 7th, is therefore incorrect. Quite straightforward. No points to be scored. But let's get these things right - students may be listening!

Well, I am usually critical of those who simply ASSume they know what others intend, so I need to have a big bite of “humble pie” here! In retrospect, of course that is the type of “chart” to which our gentlemen are referring, and I should have taken that into consideration. My mistake.

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So, if I were to locate a chart (NOT a chord spelling chart) that contained a Cb9, would that be close enough (key-wise, only a single flat away from Fb) to satisfy your challenge?

Ed

I don't "have a dog in this fight".

I don't think you will find something like Cb7 in blues, but I think you will in jazz charts. I would be more surprised to find Fb7 (or any extension) or something like A#7.

But in Bach, although there are no chords in it, the C# Major Prelude of the WTC, book I, wanders towards the sound of C7 going to Fm. I mean it is very clear that for a moment he is heading to Fm and setting it up with a dominant 7. The notation for chords would be B#7 to E#m if you don't switch enharmonically, mentally, to flats.

There is the notation of music, and then there is the sound of it. Sometimes the two clash horribly. Even if someone notates Fb9, in ANY kind of music, I am sure I am thinking, in my mind, E9.

Well, if you are referring to Muddy Watters-style blues, I'll bet you are right. Much of that genre depended on use of the open strings on the guitar, laying well in E, A, D, and G.

I am hoping that daviel and Jazz+ bite on my Cb9 offer. What do you say, guys - close enough, or do I have to start exploring Mingus' more esoteric works?

Before anyone else answers, blues covers a lot of territory.

I already found a Cb9 chord in a standard. It took me perhaps two minutes to find it.

Here is a quote from member Tango, from Sept 2010

"Hello all.I am learning the song "The Girl From Ipanema".It was written by Antonio Carlos Jobim.It is in a Fake book.I want to play it using chords in the right hand and the melody in the right hand.There is a Cb9 cord in the L.H."

Bingo! Ipanema is most often played in F. The bridge moves to Gb, so the Cb9 chord is the IV chord. Then it moves to parallel minor, so F#m9, but then goes to D7 or D9, etc.

Not blues, but a very famous standard.