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I'm looking at buying a rebuilt Mason and Hamlin AA and I have a choice between either a 1919 or a 1932. I wanted to get some opinions and thoughts on the AA from those years. I'm going to have the belly and the action completely rebuilt but not the exterior.

thank you
Grant

Not knowing what other factors could be, I'd opt for the earlier one.

The later one has a 2 bridge design that is better than the earlier 3 bridge design. However, some of those AAs from the teens, if rebuilt beautifully, can be absolutely magic pianos.
It will really depend on the skill of the rebuilder and the extent of the rebuild.

When you say one bridge is better, can I ask what that means? Are we talking a tonal issue or a stability of tuning issue or something else entirely?

thank you
Grant

It is not a matter of 2 bridges being better than 3 bridges, it is a way to identify which design of Mason & Hamlin you are looking at. If you look inside these Mason & Hamlins, one will have 2 bridges and one will have 3 bridges. The tenor area in the Mason with 3 bridges has some real sound issues if not addressed in the rebuild with modification. The rest of that piano is amazing, though.

I like the two bridge design myself. Your tastes may lean to the three bridge design. I'm trying to think of where to go to do comparison.

Do you already have someone to rebuild the piano? If so, what does this person think? Does the rebuilder have experience with the 2-bridge and 3-bridge AA's? If so, are there samples of his work you can sample to see which you prefer?

Is that modification something that is common knowledge in the Mason and Hamlin rebuilding community?

thanks
Grant

Good point. I'm going to call tomorrow to ask.

Grant

There are AAs with a tenor bridge which loops back for the wound strings, others with a Y for the wound strings, and others with no special bridge and fewer wound strings. I doubt that most players would pay much attention to which they are playing on. In short, it is not likely to be a factor, whether it is modified or not.

Well, it's a factor if you play music that utilizes the tenor section of the piano. And if you listen. Most players who pay attention to how a piano sounds will notice it. I am sure that is why Mason & Hamlin changed the design, as did Steinway, whose model A1 is the piano on which the 3 bridge Mason & Hamlin AAs were based.



I would say that better rebuilders who have rebuilt a couple of the older AAs begin to address this in one way or another.

Mason & Hamlin changed their scales many, many times. They thought that the three bridge design was adequate for 30-odd years, despite the fact that they could have changed it any time. People bought them anyway.

Because of the many scales Mason & Hamlin has used, I have no qualms about rescaling their pianos, and the result has always been good, no matter what the design of the piano. But there are other people who restring with the original scale, and their results are good, too.

Piano manufacturers such as Steinway and Mason Hamlin discontinued the three bridge design to reduce manufacturing costs.

It was sold to the public as an "Improvement"

Those who liked the old sound better disagreed.

Those who liked the new sound, agreed.

The United States has had regular depressions in the economy along with challenges from other "Leisure" businesses such as the Phonograph and the radio that also challenged Piano Sales ..

These changes in the economic climate drove changes in piano manufacturing.

These "discussions" within the piano industry are documented by many in the industry at that time.

While I agree that many many changes over the years in Steinways and Mason & Hamlins were done to cut costs, I don't believe that Steinway, who changed the A1 with a 3 bridge design to the A2 with a 2 bridge design in 1895 ( give or take ) or Mason & Hamlin made this design change for cost cutting measures. I would be very interested in seeing something documented for this specific change in these specific models.
I certainly also respect that someone might prefer or love the sound of the Steinway A1 and of the earlier M&H AAs, but if they also felt the tenor section in these pianos was better than in the later models, or even was good or fine in and of itself, I would be pretty surprised at the least, and wonder what they were listening to.

Your opinion on what sound is better, 3 bridge or 2 bridge ... Is just that, Opinion. And, your opinion is correct for your taste. To further say that "your" oinion on taste accounts for what manufacturers decisions were historically could be misleading. Respectfully, of course.

Other professionals research into manufacturers documents, personal letters and diaries is extensive and far beyond my experience.

As noted in my other post, Bill Shull will be speaking at my shop for an all day seminar on May 12th 2012.

Bill, by all accounts, it that professional who has done exhaustive research in this area. I would invite all who are interested to attend.

Kieth, I spoke to you on the phone recently and I know you will be unable to attend. Perhaps we can get an opinion from Bill on this question ??

Hey Larry,

Of course it is my opinion. And I would be very interested if Bill had any research, specifically on what we are discussing as to why these changes were made. I would also be interested in his opinion regarding the sound in these different pianos, both historically, and his personal preferences.

So, Larry, do you have any personal preference for the sound in the tenor section of any of the different model A Steinways, or model AA Masons? Or do you think they are all equally good, but just different?

A lot of things are only noticeable when there is something else to compare. Take away the comparison, and it is no longer an issue.

In this case, we have not established what scale the '32 piano has. That was a transitional period, and I would not be able to say which of the (at least) three possibilities it is.

Thanks Kieth,

I am alluding to conversations I have had with Bill when I mention manufacturers reasons for changes made historically. I have done some research and reading as well. Bill is far and away an expert on this.

Actually, I like both scales. The three bridge design has it's intent and it is quite successful. If it is ones intent to create the type of balance you get in a three bridge design in a two bridge design, then, proper application of sound board work and hammer choice gets you reasonably close.

I knew you were going to say you liked both.........

I am not sure what you mean by balance in the 3 bridge design as the tenor just sounds like a completely different piano ( on the Steinway A1 and AAs with 3 bridges ) than the rest of the piano, and to me, it sounds weak and choked in the tenor, whether it is on one of these pianos in all original condition or if the piano has been rebuilt beautifully without changing the design, new board or original board.

Hammer choice, hammer weight, hammer voicing and soundboard work can certainly help the 3 bridge models to sound and work better in that area, but if I am reading you correctly, you are saying you think the 3 bridge Steinway A1 and the 3 bridge M&H AAs have better balance in the tenor than the later 2 bridge Steinway As and M&H AAs? Did I read that right?

The territory we would call balance is created in the belly work. Hammers exploit that territory.

Just because you might call some work "Beautifully Done" does not also mean the proper territory has been created or hammers properly chosen and voiced for the result you would like to expect.

A belly in and of itself is a balance of many relationships. Even before it is glued into the piano. The definition of these choices as good for your intended result or not will not be known until the piano is done and playable.

I would spend more time considering those initial choices and less time discounting a particular design.

It seems true that 3 bridges simplifies some aspects and complicates others all at the same time.

I would like to have the opportunity to play an A1 88 right after completion in the 1890's .... And hear the result of Steinway's choices then.