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Play Piano By Ear Secrets #1873555
04/04/12 08:41 AM
04/04/12 08:41 AM
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dmd Offline OP
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Here is a website I stumbled upon.

http://www.pianobyearsecrets.com/index.html

Just wondering if anyone has tried it and if so, what is your opinion of it ?



Don

Duane Shinn 52 Week Crash Course - Completed Chapter 5

Pianoteq, Spacestation v.3 Powered Stereo Monitor
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Re: Play Piano By Ear Secrets [Re: dmd] #1873572
04/04/12 09:47 AM
04/04/12 09:47 AM
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Hong Kong
Weiyan Offline
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Not tried. Not interested to try.

C note harmonize with C chord, F note harmonize with F chord etc. The chord progression destroyed.

C chord re-harmonize with A-7+5. I don't really understand what's +5, A-7 is C-E-G-A, its a C chord + 6th. Its selling gimmick.



Working on:\

J.S.Bach Prelude in C Min: No. 2 from Six Preludes fur Anfanger auf dem
Am Abend No. 2 from Stimmungsbilder, Op. 88
60s Swing No. 1 from Swinging Rhythms
http://weiyanwo.wordpress.com
Re: Play Piano By Ear Secrets [Re: dmd] #1873735
04/04/12 03:20 PM
04/04/12 03:20 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
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Boynton Beach, FL
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Looks like you get the book and then for each note in a melody you can choose which chord from the corresponding chapter in the book (if the melody is scale degree 1, go to chapter for chords that go with the tonic note). I suppose you could do that, but this is nothing "new" and "never before released" information. Honestly, I didn't care for how he played Hark the Herald, nor do I find the traditional chords "bland and boring" as he claims. Of course, it's all opinion, and if you like that sort of thing you can do that. However, these are things that can and are taught in piano lessons a bit more thoroughly than playing by numbers. I'm not sure where the "playing by ear" part comes in to using the book to decide every chord you want to play.


private piano/voice teacher FT

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Re: Play Piano By Ear Secrets [Re: Morodiene] #1873783
04/04/12 05:09 PM
04/04/12 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Morodiene
Looks like you get the book and then for each note in a melody you can choose which chord from the corresponding chapter in the book (if the melody is scale degree 1, go to chapter for chords that go with the tonic note). I suppose you could do that, but this is nothing "new" and "never before released" information. Honestly, I didn't care for how he played Hark the Herald, nor do I find the traditional chords "bland and boring" as he claims. Of course, it's all opinion, and if you like that sort of thing you can do that. However, these are things that can and are taught in piano lessons a bit more thoroughly than playing by numbers. I'm not sure where the "playing by ear" part comes in to using the book to decide every chord you want to play.


I totally agree with your analysis of what the concept is.

My problem with it is exactly what you alluded to ...

not being sure where the "playing by ear" comes in.

All this seems to be is being able to pick various canned harmonies to play for melody notes. When all is said and done, all you would seem to have is some memorized version of a piece of music.

Now, if you could somehow ingest (memorize) all of those harmony options so you would be able to select them on the fly ... that would be useful. Good luck with that.


Don

Duane Shinn 52 Week Crash Course - Completed Chapter 5

Pianoteq, Spacestation v.3 Powered Stereo Monitor
Re: Play Piano By Ear Secrets [Re: dmd] #1873787
04/04/12 05:13 PM
04/04/12 05:13 PM
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Waxahachie, Texas
daviel Offline
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There are no secrets!


"Forget it, Jake. It's Chinatown."
David Loving, Waxahachie, Texas
Re: Play Piano By Ear Secrets [Re: daviel] #1873799
04/04/12 05:36 PM
04/04/12 05:36 PM
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dmd Offline OP
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Originally Posted by daviel
There are no secrets!


Boy, isn't THAT the truth !



Don

Duane Shinn 52 Week Crash Course - Completed Chapter 5

Pianoteq, Spacestation v.3 Powered Stereo Monitor
Re: Play Piano By Ear Secrets [Re: dmd] #1874066
04/05/12 07:41 AM
04/05/12 07:41 AM
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Belgium
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Originally Posted by dmd
[quote=Morodiene]
Now, if you could somehow ingest (memorize) all of those harmony options so you would be able to select them on the fly ... that would be useful. Good luck with that.

I do not know... I can simply hear those harmonies...


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Re: Play Piano By Ear Secrets [Re: RedKat] #1874122
04/05/12 09:43 AM
04/05/12 09:43 AM
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Australia
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Over 100,000 customers at what? $100 a pop? on a website that has been online since June last year?

Surely doing well enough to employ a proof reader. I found three typos in as many minutes.


Rob
Re: Play Piano By Ear Secrets [Re: R0B] #1874135
04/05/12 10:08 AM
04/05/12 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by R0B
Over 100,000 customers at what? $100 a pop? on a website that has been online since June last year?

Surely doing well enough to employ a proof reader. I found three typos in as many minutes.



I know. That is one of the things that turns me off to the site.

It appears to be nothing more than having someone sitting next to you giving you suggestions for which keys to press for each melody note. It may sound nice, but it is really only memorizing a piece of music. I have been down that road. That gets old.


Don

Duane Shinn 52 Week Crash Course - Completed Chapter 5

Pianoteq, Spacestation v.3 Powered Stereo Monitor
Re: Play Piano By Ear Secrets [Re: dmd] #1874254
04/05/12 03:01 PM
04/05/12 03:01 PM
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MA
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Maybe I'm being too judgmental but the site just looked cheesy to me and I wouldn't buy it.

I have a very old play by ear "course" at home. Mostly they say to get to know the circle of 5ths and that a lot of playing by ear is trial and error (at first-but obviously there is less guess work the better your ear gets). They also mention some common chord progressions. Another thing that is mentioned a lot is getting to know the intervals. And there is a list of common songs that you can use to associate the interval with so its easier to remember and identify. Like some-where (in somewhere over the rainbow is an octave).
So, I think you could do a lot of this stuff on your own without a course.


“The doubters said, "Man cannot fly," The doers said, "Maybe, but we'll try,"
And finally soared in the morning glow while non-believers watched from below.”
― Bruce Lee
Re: Play Piano By Ear Secrets [Re: dmd] #1874267
04/05/12 03:53 PM
04/05/12 03:53 PM
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South Florida
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Gary D. Online content
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Another version of "Piano in a Flash".

This kind of gimmick is like Jason. It just can't be killed...


Piano Teacher
Re: Play Piano By Ear Secrets [Re: dmd] #1874282
04/05/12 04:23 PM
04/05/12 04:23 PM
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Starr Keys Offline
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+1. Thank you! Couldn't have said it better!

Re: Play Piano By Ear Secrets [Re: dmd] #1874365
04/05/12 07:31 PM
04/05/12 07:31 PM
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Brian Lucas Offline
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Most playing by ear is based on knowing your scales and chords for each key. Eventually, you can just identify what a 5 chord sounds like for example. There are even typical out of key chords that you can get used to hearing.

I can try to simplify what these guys seem to be saying about reharmonization. It's easier to think of that approach in triads. If you're playing a C melody note, think of all the chords that have a C in them and try them over your bass note. An F major and minor, An Ab major, A minor, etc. It's also an easier way to play complex chords like C7(b9,13). Looks hard right? But if you play the root and 7th in your left hand (C and Bb) and play an A major triad in your right hand, you get that complex chord. Herbie Hancock uses this technique all over the place. Arpeggiate the A major triad and you'll hear a classic jazz lick. From there, I suppose you could explore changing the bass note as well to find those crazy fast chord changes he was playing, but the trick to that sound is a triad in the right hand that doesn't exactly match up with the bass note. I always remember what a jazz coach once told me, "A lot of the time, it's just BS to get from one chord to another"

I believe playing by ear is simply being able to give a name to what you hear so you can play it again.


-Brian
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Re: Play Piano By Ear Secrets [Re: Brian Lucas] #1874626
04/06/12 10:26 AM
04/06/12 10:26 AM
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dmd Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Brian Lucas
like C7(b9,13). Looks hard right? But if you play the root and 7th in your left hand (C and Bb) and play an A major triad in your right hand, you get that complex chord.


Of course, that is true of any chord. For example: EbMaj7 = Eb + Gm chord.

How do those "tricks" help ? It would seem you need to memorize them also.


Don

Duane Shinn 52 Week Crash Course - Completed Chapter 5

Pianoteq, Spacestation v.3 Powered Stereo Monitor
Re: Play Piano By Ear Secrets [Re: dmd] #1874633
04/06/12 10:41 AM
04/06/12 10:41 AM
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Ireland (ex England)
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Not necessarily hard, dmd. I think that's Brian's point, once you start thinking that way.

The 13 is a sixth, right? So mediant, A; flatted ninth is C#. Standard C7 in LH. A and C# (b9, 13) in RH. Done.



Richard
Re: Play Piano By Ear Secrets [Re: dmd] #1874662
04/06/12 12:07 PM
04/06/12 12:07 PM
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Starr Keys Offline
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Memorization becomes reflex after using it repeatedly. It also helps to visualize what your thinking about. For instance, you always get a 13th by playing a note a third down from the tonic root without leaving the scale. The note a third down falling on an accidental or outside the scale is the b13th--this is why as Brian says its important to know your scales. The b9 you want is outside the scale, so the chord you play from the scale position a third below the tonic in the key must be a major triad, since you'd always play a minor triad from that position when you stay in the key--this is why, as Brian says, it's important to know your chords in each key.

Re: Play Piano By Ear Secrets [Re: dmd] #1874682
04/06/12 12:58 PM
04/06/12 12:58 PM
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Yes, you're all right. And Don, you'd have to memorize the main concept, but knowing you can make that chord by playing a triad starting on the minor 3rd down (or the third in the key, I like that idea), you only have to learn the concept once for all 12 chords.

Taking your example of an EbMaj7 being a G minor chord, here's where the "trick" idea comes in. The dominant in Eb would be Bb7 right? So let's say I want to jazz it up and play my Bb7(b9,13) to that EbMaj7. In my left hand, I play Bb and Ab, then Eb and G, to hear the chord structure. In my right hand I go down a third and play a G major triad followed by a G minor triad. You've simplified a more complex chord progression by seeing it in triads.

Once you take that through a couple keys, it's easier to "see" what the triads are for each pattern. So for my 5 to 1 in C, it would be E major to E minor. I hate calling them tricks, more like understanding theory and simplifying the way you see patterns.


-Brian
BM in Performance, Berklee College of Music, 23+ year teacher and touring musician
My Downloadable Video Piano Lessons
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Re: Play Piano By Ear Secrets [Re: dmd] #1874687
04/06/12 01:05 PM
04/06/12 01:05 PM
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By the way Richard, I think it's easier to think of 7, 9, 11 and 13 related to the triad too. 7 and 9 to the root. 11 off the third and 13 off the fifth. So if I'm looking for a b9 really fast, I already know where my root is, so just go up a half step. That way, I don't have to really worry about the key I'm in, since dominant chords can really be anywhere, in key, out of key, WAY out of key.

Also Starr, looks like you're getting more of that understanding you've been looking for (knowing we're making the 6 minor chord major). Once you get back to playing, I'm sure all that thinking will show in your playing.


-Brian
BM in Performance, Berklee College of Music, 23+ year teacher and touring musician
My Downloadable Video Piano Lessons
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Re: Play Piano By Ear Secrets [Re: dmd] #1874698
04/06/12 01:27 PM
04/06/12 01:27 PM
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Ok, I get it.

Thanks for the in-depth.




Don

Duane Shinn 52 Week Crash Course - Completed Chapter 5

Pianoteq, Spacestation v.3 Powered Stereo Monitor
Re: Play Piano By Ear Secrets [Re: Brian Lucas] #1874702
04/06/12 01:29 PM
04/06/12 01:29 PM
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Thanks, Brian, I wouldn't have thought of that. As most of my theory was learnt with a guitar background, anything over a seventh is usu. an 'add' note for me so I read 9 as 2, 11 as 4 and 13 as 6.

Now that I'm spending more time on piano that (your idea) may help me more.




Richard
Re: Play Piano By Ear Secrets [Re: dmd] #1874773
04/06/12 03:52 PM
04/06/12 03:52 PM
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Starr Keys Offline
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Quote
Starr, looks like you're getting more of that understanding you've been looking for (knowing we're making the 6 minor chord major). Once you get back to playing, I'm sure all that thinking will show in your playing.


Thanks, Brian,for the reinforcement. I think one simple and key distinction that I recently became aware of that helped me is that flats and sharps have a different relationship to notation on the staff than they do to the numerical component of the chord notation. On the staff they can and often do represent accidentals (notes outside the scale) but they also represent notes in the scale, say a key signature for a minor scale, or even in a major key where earlier in a measure a note was "accidentalized" and is now returning to its natural position in the key.

But flats and sharps in the numerical component of chord notation are different, they always represent accidentals in the context of the alphabetical part of the chord notation in relation to the major key, even if the chord is minor. For example in the staff notation above which one found a CMin7b13, the b13 could be a natural scale tone in a minor scale and the Cminor key notation could use the same key signature as Eb Major. In this case, the Ab would be in the key signature and there would be no flat in the notation. It may seem like an academic point but I think it made a big difference to my reading of chord notation versus staff notation and how I visualize them in memory which I think can cause some confusion if not understood.

Last edited by Starr Keys; 04/06/12 04:18 PM.
Re: Play Piano By Ear Secrets [Re: Starr Keys] #1874978
04/06/12 11:53 PM
04/06/12 11:53 PM
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Brian Lucas Offline
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Originally Posted by Starr Keys
It may seem like an academic point but I think it made a big difference to my reading of chord notation versus staff notation and how I visualize them in memory which I think can cause some confusion if not understood.

It could be an academic point, but that doesn't mean not a valid one. That's why especially when you are dealing with out of key chords, it's sometimes easier to see the notes in relation to the chords and not the key you're in. For a simple example, if I'm in C and there's an Ab9 chord, I'm not going to see the nine as the flat 7 in the key. I'd rather think of it as a step above my root, Ab. Mainly because that's easier for me to see.

Everyone is different, so it's a matter of finding how your brain likes to visualize the theory. It then becomes what I call practical theory, knowledge you can apply at the piano. Definitely on the right track. The more "Ah-ha" moments you can have, the better your playing will be overall.


-Brian
BM in Performance, Berklee College of Music, 23+ year teacher and touring musician
My Downloadable Video Piano Lessons
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Re: Play Piano By Ear Secrets [Re: dmd] #1874984
04/07/12 12:16 AM
04/07/12 12:16 AM
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I have been interested in ordering the piano ear secrets course; but I am not sure if this course will really teach me how to play by ear. It seems that I would have to memorize many complicated chords before I can play any piano by ear. I have been searching for a good play piano by ear course program that will me develop into a good pianist for a band or gathering setting.

Brian, you have very good insight in how to practice to develop good ear training skills.

Re: Play Piano By Ear Secrets [Re: ChazG] #1875007
04/07/12 02:10 AM
04/07/12 02:10 AM
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Brian Lucas Offline
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Originally Posted by ChazG
Brian, you have very good insight in how to practice to develop good ear training skills.

Thanks Chaz. I'd like to say there's an end game to all this, but I still listen to things and sometimes say "What was that?". Constant learning. The more you understand about music, the more you can play by just hearing it.


-Brian
BM in Performance, Berklee College of Music, 23+ year teacher and touring musician
My Downloadable Video Piano Lessons
My Sight Reading eBook
My Music
Re: Play Piano By Ear Secrets [Re: dmd] #1875073
04/07/12 08:20 AM
04/07/12 08:20 AM
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Found some book about ear training.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Real-Easy..._0?ie=UTF8&qid=1333804167&sr=1-3
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0793581931/ref=cm_cr_asin_lnk

I am not sure whether they are helpful.

EDIT
http://www.earmaster.com/comparison.htm
A ear training software. The pro version has chord progression training. Very expensive compare to the books.

Last edited by Weiyan; 04/07/12 08:40 AM.

Working on:\

J.S.Bach Prelude in C Min: No. 2 from Six Preludes fur Anfanger auf dem
Am Abend No. 2 from Stimmungsbilder, Op. 88
60s Swing No. 1 from Swinging Rhythms
http://weiyanwo.wordpress.com
Re: Play Piano By Ear Secrets [Re: dmd] #1875105
04/07/12 09:35 AM
04/07/12 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Brian Lucas
I'd like to say there's an end game to all this, but I still listen to things and sometimes say "What was that?". Constant learning. The more you understand about music, the more you can play by just hearing it.

+1 thumb

Rick


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Re: Play Piano By Ear Secrets [Re: dmd] #1875199
04/07/12 01:15 PM
04/07/12 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian Lucas
Originally Posted by Starr Keys
It may seem like an academic point but I think it made a big difference to my reading of chord notation versus staff notation and how I visualize them in memory which I think can cause some confusion if not understood.

It could be an academic point, but that doesn't mean not a valid one. That's why especially when you are dealing with out of key chords, it's sometimes easier to see the notes in relation to the chords and not the key you're in.


Thanks, Brian. What I mean by academic is I must have learned it sometime in order to be able to read altered chords and notate them and now that I can, it's kind of a moot point. But somehow becoming conscious of the distinction while analyzing the music and the chords above it and trying to embellish from them, made me able to visualize and hear things better on the keyboard.

So maybe it's actually the reverse, it was only academic before because I didn't know the keys and chords well enough to make the distinction important. Now it's practical information I can apply--as in being able to recognize how those chords with numbered flats and sharps always sound a certain way or visualize them outside the pattern of other notes in the scale on the keyboard where before I was thinking more about their function in a certain progression or moving away from it.

As you say, you only have to learn the formula for an extended chord once to figure out the chord and recognize it in all 12 keys, but you have to know twelve major scales and their seven triads before you can see, hear and remember easily the chords built from them in every key.

Re: Play Piano By Ear Secrets [Re: Starr Keys] #1875974
04/09/12 12:41 AM
04/09/12 12:41 AM
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Nashville, TN
Originally Posted by Starr Keys
As you say, you only have to learn the formula for an extended chord once to figure out the chord and recognize it in all 12 keys, but you have to know twelve major scales and their seven triads before you can see, hear and remember easily the chords built from them in every key.

Yeah, that is true. It's like a lot of little parts have to come together and then you suddenly see it more clearly. I remember many conversations in college trying to analyze this song or that progression. All in an attempt to understand what it is we're hearing. Same process as reading music or a chord chart, just in reverse.


-Brian
BM in Performance, Berklee College of Music, 23+ year teacher and touring musician
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Re: Play Piano By Ear Secrets [Re: dmd] #1876066
04/09/12 07:06 AM
04/09/12 07:06 AM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 51
China
RandomPianist Offline
Full Member
RandomPianist  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 51
China
Looks highly unreliable. Wouldn't buy it.


"Just practice diligently and you will do very well. You have five fingers on each hand just as healthy as mine."
~ J.S. Bach
Re: Play Piano By Ear Secrets [Re: ChazG] #1876087
04/09/12 07:51 AM
04/09/12 07:51 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 16,394
Boynton Beach, FL
Morodiene Offline
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Morodiene  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 16,394
Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted by ChazG
I have been interested in ordering the piano ear secrets course; but I am not sure if this course will really teach me how to play by ear. It seems that I would have to memorize many complicated chords before I can play any piano by ear. I have been searching for a good play piano by ear course program that will me develop into a good pianist for a band or gathering setting.

Brian, you have very good insight in how to practice to develop good ear training skills.


Keep in mind, that playing jazz is primarily an aural tradition, and so this is usually what people mean when saying "play by ear". But it also requires a lot of memorizing the pattern of chords and how to voice them. This takes a lot of drilling to be able to do in any key and to be able to draw upon it when figuring out how to arrange a piece/song. So this is just one guy's way of organizing these chords for himself, but it may not work for everyone. Nor if you want to do this legitimately will it be a short-cut. Sure you can choose from his book what to play, but how is that different than just taking a written-out score and playing it? Where does your own creativity come in?

I really don't believe that those who really want to play piano - whether by ear or reading notation or both - can do so "in a flash" or whatever. Those who want immediate gratification can probably fool themselves or others into thinking they can play, but really they end up being a one-trick pony. Sorry if I offend, but that's MHO.


private piano/voice teacher FT

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