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#1838069 - 02/03/12 04:44 PM Re: best piano microphone [Re: richard_dup1]  
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wouter79 Offline
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My vote is on very-small diaphragm electrets.

I use DPA4060 with Jecklin disk, at about 1 to 1.5 m distance

Here is an example

http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/sinding.mp3

(My mozart performance of the last ABF recital seems to have disappeared already?)

Last edited by wouter79; 02/03/12 04:48 PM.

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#1838087 - 02/03/12 05:24 PM Re: best piano microphone [Re: wouter79]  
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I'm making progress. I now realize that in a small room the AKG 414 needs to be on the edge and perhaps slightly in the piano. I've eliminated the "boxy" sound that is so obvious in my first attempt. Now I have to get the position exactly right; so that the bass doesn't boom and the treble is not too bright.


My take on J. S. Bach, Scarlatti, Shostakovich: https://www.youtube.com/user/dohgrant/playlists

My current thing.... a wee bit of Shostakovich, that underrated Russian composer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C29LqzTOoYM&list=PLP5BZzcdRkq1WU147i5-3K92XlBgTe-kp
#1838088 - 02/03/12 05:24 PM Re: best piano microphone [Re: wouter79]  
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johnlewisgrant Offline
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Originally Posted by wouter79
My vote is on very-small diaphragm electrets.

I use DPA4060 with Jecklin disk, at about 1 to 1.5 m distance

Here is an example

http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/sinding.mp3

(My mozart performance of the last ABF recital seems to have disappeared already?)


Sounds great.. i like it!

JG


My take on J. S. Bach, Scarlatti, Shostakovich: https://www.youtube.com/user/dohgrant/playlists

My current thing.... a wee bit of Shostakovich, that underrated Russian composer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C29LqzTOoYM&list=PLP5BZzcdRkq1WU147i5-3K92XlBgTe-kp
#1838128 - 02/03/12 06:31 PM Re: best piano microphone [Re: wouter79]  
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Seeker Offline
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Very nice recording. The DPA's are VERY accurate, and with the Jecklin disc, you can make a nice binaural recording as well.

Where did you put the disc?

What preamp did you use?

Did you make the disc or buy it?

Keep up the great work!


Andrew Kraus, Pianist
Educated Amateur Tuner/Technician
Rockville, MD USA
www.AndrewKraus.com
www.YouTube.com/RockvillePianoGuy
Twitter at @IAmAPianist

1929 Steinert 6'10" (Close copy of New York S&S "B")
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#1838148 - 02/03/12 06:52 PM Re: best piano microphone [Re: johnlewisgrant]  
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You're on the right track, and the AKG C414 can work fine with piano though small diaphragm condensers like Wouter's DPAs are often preferred. It depends what you like.

Have a look at the setup I did here:
[Linked Image]

and here:
[Linked Image]

In this case, I used the microphones in a cardioid pattern - something you CAN do with the AKGs with no bass roll off and no volume pad.

You can hear the sound of this piano recorded with these microphones in this configuration in the mix on a recent CD by Laura Mills here: http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/lauramills2. Yes, there was some compression and EQ done for the final mix, but not much.
====================
And here's another idea. In recent recording sessions at Blue House Productions in Silver Spring, two large diaphragm condenser mics, very good ones, Neumann U-87s, were used in a configuration SIMILAR but not identical to the one I used. In this case the microphones were used in an OMNI pattern, and were placed in parallel: one was about where my "treble" microphone is in the pictures, the other at the bass bridge break. The grills of the microphones were both facing the long edges of the piano as opposed to the way I did it in my set up where the "bass" microphone was facing down towards the strings.
================================
Happy Recording Adventures!


Andrew Kraus, Pianist
Educated Amateur Tuner/Technician
Rockville, MD USA
www.AndrewKraus.com
www.YouTube.com/RockvillePianoGuy
Twitter at @IAmAPianist

1929 Steinert 6'10" (Close copy of New York S&S "B")
#1838248 - 02/03/12 11:01 PM Re: best piano microphone [Re: richard_dup1]  
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I use a ZOOM H2n, inexpensive, very handy and easy to use. I’m very pleased with the results for my own amateur recordings.


1928 Chas. M. Stieff 6'1" Grand. Major rebuild 2011
1920 Mason & Risch Upright (actually my mother's)
1971 Hammond R-100
Roland KR577
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An old concertina which I can't play
#1838291 - 02/04/12 12:44 AM Re: best piano microphone [Re: richard_dup1]  
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Great, super clear pics. The mics are about a foot off the soundboard. And I can see that the bass mike is pointed down directly at the strings. Is that treb mic pointed down at the treb strings or sideways? Looks like it's pointed towards the long end (left side when seated at the piano). Can't quite tell. I guess you can play with that orientation.

Also Cardioid pattern is (I'm such a newbie) governed by a switch on the back of the mike, I'm guessing... well, that's the way it is on the akgs.

Having trouble posting... hope this isn't a double... here's what I'm getting now, with the 414s IN the piano, coincident layout, 1/2 between lid and board, pointing to treb and bass on an angle, not pointed right at the strings. Cardioid pattern.

Here's a brief sound sample, some verb added, that's it:

http://www.box.com/s/pcgjnn7zba2vimx4ma2o


My take on J. S. Bach, Scarlatti, Shostakovich: https://www.youtube.com/user/dohgrant/playlists

My current thing.... a wee bit of Shostakovich, that underrated Russian composer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C29LqzTOoYM&list=PLP5BZzcdRkq1WU147i5-3K92XlBgTe-kp
#1838302 - 02/04/12 01:08 AM Re: best piano microphone [Re: richard_dup1]  
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The best mic will depend on how, exactly you're using it. Generally speaking, I prefer large diaphragm condensers or ribbon mics. My first pair of studio mics were the M-Audio Novas. They are $99, and more than adequate for most applications. That said, a few summers ago, I built a pair of ribbon microphones, which I love. I don't think I'd recommend ribbon mics for a beginner, though. Your best bang for your buck is probably the Rode NT1-A. Get a pair of those and a USB audio interface (I like the Focusrite Saffire 6) to record directly into your computer. If you're a Mac person, you can use the Ardour DAW (which is free, but good), otherwise, I'd recommend Sony Sound Forge (Audio Studio).

You really don't need to go out and spend several grand (or even one grand) for an audio setup. There is a very real diminishing rate of return with audio equipment.

#1838390 - 02/04/12 06:49 AM Re: best piano microphone [Re: richard_dup1]  
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Thanks!

Let me add that I think omni directional mics are the best to use: more accurate frequency response. What you need for a piano is a dead flat frequency response from 20 to 20kHz IMHO

I had a thread some time ago concerning where to place the mic:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1723144/Re:%20new%20gear!%20mic%20placement%20fe.html#Post1723144

Currently I use the "diagonal" position, about 1.5 meter high. My room is just a (small) living room, about 6 by 4 meters and 2.5 meter high, in an appartment/flat.

an even earlier thread on my equipment:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1718523/1.html


The jecklin disk I made myself.

Last edited by wouter79; 02/04/12 06:50 AM.

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#1838412 - 02/04/12 08:52 AM Re: best piano microphone [Re: richard_dup1]  
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i'm in the process of ugrading my recording equip from a zoom q3 (which i'll still use for the video, and merge via windows movie maker). here's what i got for under $300:

2 behringer C-3 mics
presonus audiobox 22VSL with Studio One & VSL software (am using a laptop for my DAW)
2 boom stands & cables

after experimentation i'm placing one mic in the bend of the piano, 1 foot away, in cardioid mode, aimed at middle C (per paul cantrell's advice). the other mic is in omni mode and is under the lid, over the bass strings. the piano is on half-stick to compress the sound and saturate the mics.

here's a doodle demo; no effects, pan hard L-R. i still want to capture more of the sonorous lower register of my C7, but it's a start. you'll need a decent set of speakers or headset to get the idea:

http://www.box.com/s/l79gfhkn50laao37nb4p

comments are welcome!


#1838421 - 02/04/12 09:09 AM Re: best piano microphone [Re: Entheo]  
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johnlewisgrant Offline
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Originally Posted by Entheo
i'm in the process of ugrading my recording equip from a zoom q3 (which i'll still use for the video, and merge via windows movie maker). here's what i got for under $300:

2 behringer C-3 mics
presonus audiobox 22VSL with Studio One & VSL software (am using a laptop for my DAW)
2 boom stands & cables

after experimentation i'm placing one mic in the bend of the piano, 1 foot away, in cardioid mode, aimed at middle C (per paul cantrell's advice). the other mic is in omni mode and is under the lid, over the bass strings. the piano is on half-stick to compress the sound and saturate the mics.

here's a doodle demo; no effects, pan hard L-R. i still want to capture more of the sonorous lower register of my C7, but it's a start. you'll need a decent set of speakers or headset to get the idea:

http://www.box.com/s/l79gfhkn50laao37nb4p

comments are welcome!



This is better souding than my rented AKG 414s!!!


http://www.box.com/s/pcgjnn7zba2vimx4ma2o

What do you think?

Do I have work to do!! I'm going to try seeker's set up.

JG


My take on J. S. Bach, Scarlatti, Shostakovich: https://www.youtube.com/user/dohgrant/playlists

My current thing.... a wee bit of Shostakovich, that underrated Russian composer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C29LqzTOoYM&list=PLP5BZzcdRkq1WU147i5-3K92XlBgTe-kp
#1838431 - 02/04/12 09:30 AM Re: best piano microphone [Re: richard_dup1]  
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I won't necessarily agree with John that Entheo's pair of C-3's sound "better" than John's 414's but on my listening setup both sound equally acceptable. So the sound-per-dollar ratio is off the charts for Entheo's setup. Well done!

The playing styles are different enough that I can't tell how much of the ringing, choir of angels type sound that John gets is the recording setup and how much is just the way his piano sounds when he plays that material. But there's a more focused and dry, punchy sound to Entheo's recording and a more sustaining and ringing tone to John's. I like them both but must admit to being partial to that brilliant wall of sound type thing, myself.

John,

I can hear that you still have a bit of trouble with that upper-bass resonance making certain notes boom and broaden out to where they dominate the mix. Your room and mine are very similar and I know that resonant bit of bother quite well (mine's around 125-128Hz FWIW). But better than some of the other setups you've tried.

Last edited by Brent H; 02/04/12 09:32 AM.

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#1838432 - 02/04/12 09:33 AM Re: best piano microphone [Re: richard_dup1]  
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johnlewisgrant Offline
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Behringer B-2 Pro Dual-Diaphragm Studio Microphone? Basically the same, Etheo?


My take on J. S. Bach, Scarlatti, Shostakovich: https://www.youtube.com/user/dohgrant/playlists

My current thing.... a wee bit of Shostakovich, that underrated Russian composer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C29LqzTOoYM&list=PLP5BZzcdRkq1WU147i5-3K92XlBgTe-kp
#1838434 - 02/04/12 09:34 AM Re: best piano microphone [Re: johnlewisgrant]  
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Seeker Offline
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You've got it.

The mics are about the distance from the strings you suggest. An advantage to placing the bass mic where I did is that it is further from the dampers - a little "wooshy" in sound on that piano.

The treble mic IS pointed towards the left side of the piano. The orientation WILL matter in cardioid. In that pattern the mics hear like your ears if your hands were cupped around them and angled front. (Essentially they reject sound to the rear and sides, and a graph would produce a more or less heart shaped pattern of the on axis frequency response).

I like the sound of your recording. It works for me.

Now make another with some musical material that uses the strings at the very extremes of the keyboard so we know if there are any resonant peaks in the way you've got them set up.

Me - I could live with the sound you're getting. I think it's very nice. I like the sound of these AGKs better than the Behringers.

If you're interested, the microphones I use are CM-414 from Advanced Acoustics in Canada. The capsule response is claimed to be +1/-1 db from the capsule used in the AKG C-12, a classic tube powered microphone costing multiple thou$ands. The CM-414 is priced at $379. The value proposition is interesting.

Dave Thomas, a recording engineer since the 1960's, has! these microphones built in China to his specs, then goes over them in Canada, makes some tweaks, and sells them. There are other companies doing more or less the same thing. I went with his stuff, because he answered a phone call and spent some time talking with me about what I wanted to do. I'm satisfied with the results. http://www.aamicrophones.com/fet_mics/cm_414.htm. Were I buying today, I think the gear from KEL, another Canadian company, would give Dave Thomas' mics a run for the money. The microphones they make all sound good - but different(ly) from each other. You pick one that works for your application. http://www.kelaudio.com/

Why did I go with LDCs vs. SDCs?

I admit to earlier prejudice towards something like the Earthworks or DPA mics - but then I did a gig on a decent Steinway B accompanying a singer where we were recorded with Neumann U87s, 2 in the piano in parallel as I have described, and one in ultra-cardioid pattern for her. The sound was wonderful with a lot of that same top end shimmer and a nice roundness to the sound that comes with a mic like the AKG C414. Since I make some of my living accompanying AND recording singers and instrumentalists for audition demos in my own studio (we go to Blue House and other places for post-production mastering and/or if we want a lot of very fancy editing and splicing), I wanted microphones that sounded good not only on piano - but also for singers and strings. And LDCs do just that.

I am not particularly a fan of ribbon microphones on piano. I did a session at a studio where the piano was mic'd with two very expensive ribbons from Coles pretty much next to two Neumann U87s. I listened to the mix over very high end monitors in the control room. To my ears, the Neumanns sounded better - but again - that's "TO MY EARS". In any event, I know one rather distinguished engineer that uses this stereo ribbon ($2695 from Amazon.com),microphone and swears by it: http://www.royerlabs.com/SF-12.html. It was used to record a recital on a rather splendid Yamaha S6 at Downtown Piano Works in Frederick, MD, and the recording was carried some time later on WETA. Sorry not to have any more details on it.

Last edited by Seeker; 02/04/12 10:00 AM. Reason: Added information

Andrew Kraus, Pianist
Educated Amateur Tuner/Technician
Rockville, MD USA
www.AndrewKraus.com
www.YouTube.com/RockvillePianoGuy
Twitter at @IAmAPianist

1929 Steinert 6'10" (Close copy of New York S&S "B")
#1838436 - 02/04/12 09:36 AM Re: best piano microphone [Re: Brent H]  
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Originally Posted by Brent H
I won't necessarily agree with John that Entheo's pair of C-3's sound "better" than John's 414's but on my listening setup both sound equally acceptable. So the sound-per-dollar ratio is off the charts for Entheo's setup. Well done!

The playing styles are different enough that I can't tell how much of the ringing, choir of angels type sound that John gets is the recording setup and how much is just the way his piano sounds when he plays that material. But there's a more focused and dry, punchy sound to Entheo's recording and a more sustaining and ringing tone to John's. I like them both but must admit to being partial to that brilliant wall of sound type thing, myself.

John,

I can hear that you still have a bit of trouble with that upper-bass resonance making certain notes boom and broaden out to where they dominate the mix. Your room and mine are very similar and I know that resonant bit of bother quite well (mine's around 125-128Hz FWIW). But better than some of the other setups you've tried.


I'm going to try to completely separate the mics now, as in the pics: one at the treb and one at the bass. Maybe that bass mic shold be angled differently, perhaps off axis, to kill the boom I'm hearing (and you're hearing).

JG


My take on J. S. Bach, Scarlatti, Shostakovich: https://www.youtube.com/user/dohgrant/playlists

My current thing.... a wee bit of Shostakovich, that underrated Russian composer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C29LqzTOoYM&list=PLP5BZzcdRkq1WU147i5-3K92XlBgTe-kp
#1838447 - 02/04/12 10:05 AM Re: best piano microphone [Re: johnlewisgrant]  
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Seeker Offline
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Rockville, MD
Re the bass resonance peak - try raising the lid all the way. I suspect the microphone is "hearing" what your ears would hear were they listening the same placement.

You can also fiddle with moving the mics up and down from the strings.

I know there's science to this recording thing, but there's at least an equal part art.

Welcome to the art part : )
=================================
Also - one of the things we did in mastering was to clear out a very small amount of bass muddiness - imperceptible to my ears until it was gone - with equalization using a multiband graphic equalizer plug in.
===============================
You will get a very different sound by placing the bass mic in parallel with your treble mic facing the side of the piano. You can try it in both omni and cardioid. Just listen and decide what you like.
===============================
There may also be a bass roll off switch on the C414. You might experiment with rolling off bass below 60hz. That might just do the trick for you.















Andrew Kraus, Pianist
Educated Amateur Tuner/Technician
Rockville, MD USA
www.AndrewKraus.com
www.YouTube.com/RockvillePianoGuy
Twitter at @IAmAPianist

1929 Steinert 6'10" (Close copy of New York S&S "B")
#1838470 - 02/04/12 11:05 AM Re: best piano microphone [Re: richard_dup1]  
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Hey Seeker, thanks for all the advice... very, very useful!

Since I actually live in the Great White North (which is anything but "white" this winter) I will check out the Canadian mics you mention. So you think they're more or less as good as the German 414s I'm renting? (Not to ask you to go out on a limb or anything!!)

And--OK sorry not to get this part-- but what do "LDC" and "SDC" stand for???


My take on J. S. Bach, Scarlatti, Shostakovich: https://www.youtube.com/user/dohgrant/playlists

My current thing.... a wee bit of Shostakovich, that underrated Russian composer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C29LqzTOoYM&list=PLP5BZzcdRkq1WU147i5-3K92XlBgTe-kp
#1838523 - 02/04/12 01:41 PM Re: best piano microphone [Re: johnlewisgrant]  
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Seeker Offline
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Rockville, MD
LDC = Large Condenser Microphone (usually "side address")
The sound goes -> into the mic | (The mic is pointing straight up)
SDC = Small Diaphragm Condenser (usually "end address")
The sound goes -> into the mic - (The mic is pointing towards the sound source)
=============================

Is the CM-414 the equal of a C-414 at 1/3 the price?

=================================
Of course not.
Is it equivalent?
Maybe. If you check Gearslutz.com, a community of folks as passionate about recording and recording equipment as we Piano World people are about pianos, and search around, you'll find that a fair number of people like them BETTER. It depends on the application and your tastes.

But then there's where the 95/5 rule comes into play.
Given identical signal chains AFTER the microphone and equivalent placement, you might find it hard to distinguish between the microphones on some material. On others, it would be easier, but it could be very surprising to see which you preferred. That's what I like about the sound demos on the KEL website. Similar materials recorded with identical signal chains but different microphones in the KEL lineup. All the clips are, of course, acceptable. There are subtle differences in the sound, and it becomes a matter of taste (the ART of recording thing, again) as to which you, or your client or audience, likes best in a particular application.

For under $400 you get, at least to my ears, 95% of the way with the CM-414, to where you get for 3x to 6x the cost of AKG C414 or Neumann U87 or etc.

There's also the matter of what comes next in the signal chain. In our case, i.e., yours and mine (M-Audio and ART USB respectively) , we've got relatively inexpensive pre-amp/analog to digital conversion hardware. For a REALLY good preamp, $1000 per channel, say $2500, gets you one of the good ones, and then there is the issue of "taste" as it applies there. What kind of music are you doing? What is the sound you desire?

And so forth.

To my ears, what I get with my CM-414s and my ART-USB preamp is as good as anything I ever got in a recording studio - back in the day - when people used things like Studers or Revox tape recorders, and some sort of AKG or Neumann microphones. It sounds like MUSIC. So today, we can get recordings with a smallish investment - say $1500 and $2000 for a pair of decent microphones, stands, cables, a preamp/analog to digital converter, a laptop with recording/editing software, some lower end self-powered monitors, a pair of audiophile headphones - and get results that rival what was done in high end studios years ago. Throw in a prosumer flash recorder like the Tascam DR-100 for $300 or 5x as much for a truly pro unit, and a shopping bag, and you can record remotely as well.

I think Dave Thomas has a reasonable return policy if you don't like the mics. When/if you call him, ask him about it, and feel free to tell him I'm happy with the CM-414s I bought from him.



Andrew Kraus, Pianist
Educated Amateur Tuner/Technician
Rockville, MD USA
www.AndrewKraus.com
www.YouTube.com/RockvillePianoGuy
Twitter at @IAmAPianist

1929 Steinert 6'10" (Close copy of New York S&S "B")
#1838533 - 02/04/12 02:07 PM Re: best piano microphone [Re: wouter79]  
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Originally Posted by wouter79
Thanks!

Let me add that I think omni directional mics are the best to use: more accurate frequency response. What you need for a piano is a dead flat frequency response from 20 to 20kHz IMHO


Given the choice between some slight coloration and unwanted ambient noise (computer, refrigerator, ventilation), I'd gladly take the former. What you're advocating for doesn't really matter in the end, especially when you go to listen to the result on consumer-grade audio equipment.

For what it's worth, though, (good) ribbon mics are more natural sounding than condensers.

#1838580 - 02/04/12 03:47 PM Re: best piano microphone [Re: johnlewisgrant]  
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Entheo Offline
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Entheo  Offline
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Originally Posted by johngrant
This is better souding than my rented AKG 414s!!!

http://www.box.com/s/pcgjnn7zba2vimx4ma2o

What do you think?


i like your sound john; there's a nice warmth, richness to it. i'm not satisfied with my sound yet, but i have to be careful about too high of expectations with $50 mics smile

i'm putting one behringer under the hood (on half stick) in omni mode straight down the barrel of the bass strings from the back of the piano. that mic is horizontal to the strings.

on the treble, i'm following paul cantrell's advice as follows:

[Linked Image]

http://innig.net/music/recordings/method/mics.html

that really helps cut down on the damper noise and proximity effect. that mic is in cardioid mode. paul suggests an opening even smaller than half-stick (which i have on my C7; a 2" mini stick) but i can't seem to get close to the resonance in the low end that i want if the bass mic isn't under the lid, and that's not a big enough opening.

here's a recording of my piano by the composer i bought it from:

http://www.box.com/s/0lia1ms5c3ri0l735409

he's using custom built DBA 747 mics. today's equivalent would be 300 series from Mojave Audio @ $1300 each. would love to, but it IS a hobby after all.

so many variables, so little time...

#1838605 - 02/04/12 04:35 PM Re: best piano microphone [Re: Entheo]  
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johnlewisgrant Offline
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Originally Posted by Entheo
Originally Posted by johngrant
This is better souding than my rented AKG 414s!!!

http://www.box.com/s/pcgjnn7zba2vimx4ma2o

What do you think?


i like your sound john; there's a nice warmth, richness to it. i'm not satisfied with my sound yet, but i have to be careful about too high of expectations with $50 mics smile

i'm putting one behringer under the hood (on half stick) in omni mode straight down the barrel of the bass strings from the back of the piano. that mic is horizontal to the strings.

on the treble, i'm following paul cantrell's advice as follows:

[Linked Image]

http://innig.net/music/recordings/method/mics.html

that really helps cut down on the damper noise and proximity effect. that mic is in cardioid mode. paul suggests an opening even smaller than half-stick (which i have on my C7; a 2" mini stick) but i can't seem to get close to the resonance in the low end that i want if the bass mic isn't under the lid, and that's not a big enough opening.

here's a recording of my piano by the composer i bought it from:

http://www.box.com/s/0lia1ms5c3ri0l735409

he's using custom built DBA 747 mics. today's equivalent would be 300 series from Mojave Audio @ $1300 each. would love to, but it IS a hobby after all.

so many variables, so little time...


What gives??? That's a FANTASTIC sound... and you had me wondering where that Beethoven was headed. But WOW... fabulous! And these are "cheap" mics? Hmmmm....

Hmmmmmm.....

Stop putting up these benchmarks I can't reach!!!

JG


My take on J. S. Bach, Scarlatti, Shostakovich: https://www.youtube.com/user/dohgrant/playlists

My current thing.... a wee bit of Shostakovich, that underrated Russian composer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C29LqzTOoYM&list=PLP5BZzcdRkq1WU147i5-3K92XlBgTe-kp
#1838629 - 02/04/12 05:22 PM Re: best piano microphone [Re: richard_dup1]  
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Grandpianoman Offline
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One of my favorite mics for my grand are handmade to order by Aman Sahiaman. http://uvfmusic.com/ You can contact him there.

They are called "Little Blondies", and outperform mics costing 3 times as much. The model I have is slightly larger than the originals. Excellent hand-made to order mics, without the high price tag.


Here are a few recordings using both on my M&H 7ft Grand.

Aman mics http://www.box.com/s/g5p4qyjovdf2vr0fu765


Worth looking into are the Avenson STO-2 omni mics.

Avensons http://www.box.com/shared/8nh2hfye4o



Also, the new Tascam IM2 stereo mic for the Iphone/Ipad is not bad for what it is. ....better than the built-ins, that's for sure.

I did a quick video recording a few weeks ago of these 2 pieces played on the LX using the IM2 with my Iphone 4.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjI5...IT6YdrzDacw&index=1&feature=plcp


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nh8WO0ssOk







#1838638 - 02/04/12 05:56 PM Re: best piano microphone [Re: johnlewisgrant]  
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Entheo Offline
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Entheo  Offline
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chicago, il
Originally Posted by johngrant
Originally Posted by Entheo
here's a recording of my piano by the composer i bought it from:

http://www.box.com/s/0lia1ms5c3ri0l735409

he's using custom built DBA 747 mics. today's equivalent would be 300 series from Mojave Audio @ $1300 each. would love to, but it IS a hobby after all.


What gives??? That's a FANTASTIC sound... and you had me wondering where that Beethoven was headed. But WOW... fabulous! And these are "cheap" mics? Hmmmm....

Hmmmmmm.....

Stop putting up these benchmarks I can't reach!!!

JG


john, that last link IS a fantastic sound, but not by me, by the guy i bought the piano from, and he's using really good mics. he also claimed to have a technique of capturing the sound off the lid, which adds to the richness.

just so you feel better, that's the benchmark i'm trying to reach, but not sure i'm going to get there with my behringers.

#1838644 - 02/04/12 06:13 PM Re: best piano microphone [Re: Grandpianoman]  
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johnlewisgrant Offline
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Joined: Nov 2007
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canada
Originally Posted by Grandpianoman
One of my favorite mics for my grand are handmade to order by Aman Sahiaman. http://uvfmusic.com/ You can contact him there.

They are called "Little Blondies", and outperform mics costing 3 times as much. The model I have is slightly larger than the originals. Excellent hand-made to order mics, without the high price tag.


Here are a few recordings using both on my M&H 7ft Grand.

Aman mics http://www.box.com/s/g5p4qyjovdf2vr0fu765


Worth looking into are the Avenson STO-2 omni mics.

Avensons http://www.box.com/shared/8nh2hfye4o



Also, the new Tascam IM2 stereo mic for the Iphone/Ipad is not bad for what it is. ....better than the built-ins, that's for sure.

I did a quick video recording a few weeks ago of these 2 pieces played on the LX using the IM2 with my Iphone 4.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjI5...IT6YdrzDacw&index=1&feature=plcp


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nh8WO0ssOk


There's some stunning improvisatory talent happening here, which makes it kinda hard to concentrate on the sound! Like the Avenson mic short improv is what I'd call a mini-masterpiece, "mini" only because it's so short. Babemagnet material....

I digress... the MH sounds fab; but you kinda suckered me with the Avenson recording.

OK... I get the picture... there are just too many good mics out there to choose from..

Or could it just be expert placement and post production/equipment and a damn good ear???

Edit... just read at the bottom that you tuned to Bremmer's no. 3.... Verituner or TL or other....?

JG


Last edited by johngrant; 02/04/12 06:17 PM.

My take on J. S. Bach, Scarlatti, Shostakovich: https://www.youtube.com/user/dohgrant/playlists

My current thing.... a wee bit of Shostakovich, that underrated Russian composer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C29LqzTOoYM&list=PLP5BZzcdRkq1WU147i5-3K92XlBgTe-kp
#1838650 - 02/04/12 06:35 PM Re: best piano microphone [Re: Grandpianoman]  
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 961
johnlewisgrant Offline
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johnlewisgrant  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 961
canada
Originally Posted by Grandpianoman
One of my favorite mics for my grand are handmade to order by Aman Sahiaman. http://uvfmusic.com/ You can contact him there.

They are called "Little Blondies", and outperform mics costing 3 times as much. The model I have is slightly larger than the originals. Excellent hand-made to order mics, without the high price tag.


Here are a few recordings using both on my M&H 7ft Grand.

Aman mics http://www.box.com/s/g5p4qyjovdf2vr0fu765


Worth looking into are the Avenson STO-2 omni mics.

Avensons http://www.box.com/shared/8nh2hfye4o



Also, the new Tascam IM2 stereo mic for the Iphone/Ipad is not bad for what it is. ....better than the built-ins, that's for sure.

I did a quick video recording a few weeks ago of these 2 pieces played on the LX using the IM2 with my Iphone 4.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjI5...IT6YdrzDacw&index=1&feature=plcp


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nh8WO0ssOk






Originally Posted by Grandpianoman
One of my favorite mics for my grand are handmade to order by Aman Sahiaman. http://uvfmusic.com/ You can contact him there.

They are called "Little Blondies", and outperform mics costing 3 times as much. The model I have is slightly larger than the originals. Excellent hand-made to order mics, without the high price tag.


Here are a few recordings using both on my M&H 7ft Grand.

Aman mics http://www.box.com/s/g5p4qyjovdf2vr0fu765


Worth looking into are the Avenson STO-2 omni mics.

Avensons http://www.box.com/shared/8nh2hfye4o



Also, the new Tascam IM2 stereo mic for the Iphone/Ipad is not bad for what it is. ....better than the built-ins, that's for sure.

I did a quick video recording a few weeks ago of these 2 pieces played on the LX using the IM2 with my Iphone 4.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjI5...IT6YdrzDacw&index=1&feature=plcp


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nh8WO0ssOk


Which piano player system is that? And BTW that Tascam? mic for the Iphone, while missing the high and low completely is nonetheless incredibly accurate in the narrow end of the middle range. The piano (MH) sounds absolutely fantastic... Bremmer 3 again, I'm assuming.

Something about the M&H... I could fall for that instrument...

JG


My take on J. S. Bach, Scarlatti, Shostakovich: https://www.youtube.com/user/dohgrant/playlists

My current thing.... a wee bit of Shostakovich, that underrated Russian composer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C29LqzTOoYM&list=PLP5BZzcdRkq1WU147i5-3K92XlBgTe-kp
#1838741 - 02/04/12 11:33 PM Re: best piano microphone [Re: johnlewisgrant]  
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johnlewisgrant Offline
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OK Here's something latenightish: Me sightreading through a relatively (emphasis needed) easy Shosty Prelude... One AKG is right over the bass strings, maybe 8 inches up, about a foot and a half from the end of the Hailun 218 (7ft2in).

The treb mic is over the high treb dampers, 8inches off, pointed sideways along the dampers towards the long end of the piano.

Both mics at cardioid setting.

I find the treb way too clinical. But that may be a matter of taste.

The bass mic works, though: somehow that position cleans up the boom factor in the high bass..... I think

Apologies to Shostakovich, and to unison perfectionists (like me) who will hear that one or two notes are slightly out!



http://www.box.com/s/464m6v0zoydgtof8lpe8


JG



My take on J. S. Bach, Scarlatti, Shostakovich: https://www.youtube.com/user/dohgrant/playlists

My current thing.... a wee bit of Shostakovich, that underrated Russian composer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C29LqzTOoYM&list=PLP5BZzcdRkq1WU147i5-3K92XlBgTe-kp
#1838758 - 02/05/12 12:24 AM Re: best piano microphone [Re: richard_dup1]  
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Here is my 'late night' improvisation, recorded as follows Improvisation

Two Rode M3 mics above the mid-tenor. Capsules aimed in opposite directions.

Placed above the piano pointed down there is a Sterling Audio ST-66.

Processed in Audacity (reverb and compression and a tiny bit of boost to the bass).

As far as the thread topic, my main discovery has been that the cardioid mics I have (the above plus Rode NT1-a's) have surprisingly small sweet spots. If I buy more mics, I think I'll probably try wide cardioid or omnidirectional ones.

Last edited by charleslang; 02/05/12 02:52 PM.

charlessamuellang.com
Semi-pro pianist and piano technician
Tuesdays 5-8:30 at Vince's West Sacramento, California
#1838881 - 02/05/12 08:32 AM Re: best piano microphone [Re: charleslang]  
Joined: Jan 2004
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Entheo Offline
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Entheo  Offline
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chicago, il
Originally Posted by charleslang
As far as the thread topic, my main discovery has been that the cardioid mics I have (the above plus Rode NT1-a's) have surprisingly small sweet spots. If I buy more mics, I think I'll probably try wide cardioid or omnidirectional ones.


charles, i'd recommend mics that are switchable, so you have lots of options. my $50 behringer c-3s have 3 positions: cardioid, figure 8 and omni.

Originally Posted by johngrant
OK Here's something latenightish: Me sightreading through a relatively (emphasis needed) easy Shosty Prelude... One AKG is right over the bass strings, maybe 8 inches up, about a foot and a half from the end of the Hailun 218 (7ft2in).

The treb mic is over the high treb dampers, 8inches off, pointed sideways along the dampers towards the long end of the piano.

Both mics at cardioid setting.


sounds good to me!

Last edited by Entheo; 02/05/12 08:37 AM.
#1838893 - 02/05/12 09:27 AM Re: best piano microphone [Re: richard_dup1]  
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Quote

equalization using a multiband graphic equalizer plug in.
bass roll
reverb
compression
mixing


Let me add that the recordings I made with the DPA have not been processed at all. Left mic straight into left channel, right mic straight into right channel.


[Linked Image][Linked Image][Linked Image][Linked Image]
#1839019 - 02/05/12 01:39 PM Re: best piano microphone [Re: johnlewisgrant]  
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Rockville, MD
I really like the sound of the recording and of the piano.
It sounds like it's panned slighly left of center, might have been a level thing with the mics.

The treble sounds great to me.

You might consider two things with the treble mic:
1) point it at the short side of the piano
2) keep it as is, but use it omni vs cardoid.

Good luck.
You're 99% of the way "there" to my ears at any rate.



Andrew Kraus, Pianist
Educated Amateur Tuner/Technician
Rockville, MD USA
www.AndrewKraus.com
www.YouTube.com/RockvillePianoGuy
Twitter at @IAmAPianist

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