Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum Teflon powder unsafe?

Dan, I only mentioned that because of the inert nature of teflon. Most other particles may gradually decompose or be able to absorb. Asbestos is another example of an inert, and therefore non-toxic, substance and we know that it stays in the lungs for life. The cancer trigger is thought to be mechanical because of the crystalline shape, but teflon particles are round and slippery so that may thankfully enable it to migrate away in phlegm. If so, then maybe old technicians have a new lubricant source - only joking.

He has indeed brought this up over the years. He has not been asked to teach on his thoughts but brings it up when others talk about using the product in a favorable manner.
I do believe it was addressed when Steve was here in my shop.

Chris thanks for the added comments. I did have a document come in with more safety information but it is in pdf form and I have no idea how to get it onto this forum.

If you or anyone else would like a copy of that document please email me direct from my web site icon and I would be glad to send a copy of that one...

The short version is that under first aid section, inhalation, skin contact, and even swallowing this product is not harmful.

It does say if you get some into your eyes to flush with plenty of water, but that is the usual for many products.

Rod,

Thanks for the clarification on the presentation aspect.The statments made about Teflon from this person are disingenuous.

I would venture to state at this point that the claims regarding Teflon being a cancer causing agent have been manufactured and perhaps for the reason suggested earlier by Sparky.

Here is another email just come in as I was writing this posting;




Something from a wise fellow a long time back;

"All substances are poisons; there is none which is not a poison. The right dose differentiates a poison…." Paracelsus (1493-1541)

Never concern yourself with the chemical, only the concentration. Water, oxygen and (literally) everything else is toxic at the proper dose.

Only charlatans fail to describe the concentrations (and toxicity levels) of the scary sounding chemicals they want you to fear (as an entirely dishonest means to their purely political ends).

I don't know why you don't "get" this statement. Someties some things are very toxic to some species but not affect other species.

There are several things that are deadly poisonous to birds that don't bother humans at all.
If your Teflon pan overheats your birds will die, usually within minutes it's that toxic to them.
I'm sure it's not good for humans but humans won't drop dead in a minute like birds will.

Freon is also highly toxic to birds.
If your air conditioner leaks freon into the house your birds will drop dead but humans won't even notice.

I will remember that the next time I heat a piano to over 400°.

Thanks to Jerry Groot and Dan Silverwood.

I made a paste with alcohol and teflon powder today.

I can imagine already how much easier some of it's uses will be now.

Thanks again.

Jean

Although I use Teflon powder sparingly on a regular basis, I do have concerns about the toxicity of its manufacturing - which has been proven to be a problem. Just because the end product isn't toxic, it doesn't follow that we should embrace the product without taking a look at all of its repercussions. We have to leave this planet for our grandchildren. We should always be looking for solutions that have the least harmful impact on the environment.

I used to use 2-part carbonless paper for my invoices. I then heard about how NCR (National Cash Register) has been involved in an ongoing law-suit over the tons of PCB's they dumped in the Fox River (http://www.foxriverwatch.com/NCR_corporation.html). So I went to using good old fashioned non-toxic carbon paper. Here's another interesting link: http://www.ewg.org/kid-safe-chemicals-act-blog/2010/07/a-little-bpa-along-with-your-change/

OK, Sparky, let me try again.

First off, it's not the Teflon that' extremely toxic to birds, but the thermal decomposition products.

Secondly, there is no rational foundation for the statement, "Bird owners should rid their house of teflon cooking pans." Risk is the combination of probability and severity of damage. The birds will only die if the pan overheats. But if it's used normally, they will be absolutely fine. I've never overheated a pan, least of all, a teflon-coated one. So to me, the potential threat my teflon pan poses to my two budgies, on the extremely off-beat chance that I overheat it, is no reason to throw it out. My teflon pan and my budgies are all in excellent health.

I don't throw my kettle or other pots 'n pans into the trash either just because my toddler could burn his fingers on them. Rather, I take due care when cooking.

If you still don't get what I don't get, never mind.

Abstract: An incident where five cockatiels (Nymphicus hollandicus) died within 30 minutes following exposure from a frying pan coated with the plastic polytetrafluoroethylene (900-284-0) (PTFE) that had accidentally overheated is reported. Within an hour the owner developed symptoms of polymer fume fever but recovered within 24 hours. A PTFE coated milk pan boiled dry for 15 minutes with the cockatiels in a cage in the next room. The birds were examined by a veterinary surgeon and were found to be normal except for the lungs, which were severely congested and edematous and were considered to be the cause of death. It is concluded that parakeets are unusually susceptable to the pyrolyses products of frying pans coated with plastic polytetrafluoroethylene.
Ref. Case of Polytetrafluoroethylene Poisoning in Cockatiels Accompanied by Polymer Fume Fever in the Owner by Blandford TB, Hughes R, Seamon PJ, Pattison M, Wilderspin MP. Veterinary Record, Vol. 96, pages 175-176, 6 references, 1975.

Well, getting back to topic: if your piano has been treated with teflon powder, you'd best throw it out, along with your teflon cooking pans. That way, the next time your house burns down, at least you can rest assured that it won't be the piano's teflon powder fumes that kill your cockatiels.

There is presently a study being conducted by 3 epedemiologists in an area near a chemical plant in the US concerning C8 (PFOA). I beleive its in Parkersburg WV where Dupont makes Teflon. Results should be out later in the year but will reflect the direction that possible lawsuits will go. 98% of the population in the US has PPB amounts of PFOA in their bloodstream according to testing and the material has ben manufactured since the 1940's. Teflon pan overheating will release the agents only if the surface has been scratched according to some studies. Incidently, perfumed scented candles, air fresheners and toxins from common houshold plants are the primary source of toxicity for housepet birds according to my veteranarian. If PFOA is of concern to someone, it is commonly found in stain resistant carpeting, carpet cleaning chemicals, microwave popcorn bags, Gore-Tex, house dust and food and water that come into contact of areas where the material has been dumped.

The MSDS (material safety data sheet, available from where you purchase a chemical)for Teflon was written for using the product in factories where the Teflon is heated. We don't use it that way. We use the powder at room temperature and apply it directly onto a surface. It is inert, but an inhalation hazard. It is also fine enough that it will enter your bloodstream through the skin. It will stay in your liver. Cumulative damage is a real issue. So often, self employed technicians ignore chemical (and other occupational) safety issues.
Years ago, I taught a class on chemical safety. Randy Potter modified my class notes and made a video.

If we are working in schools and places of business, there are legal requirements we need to pay attention to as far as chemical safety and workplace safety regulations. Here is a brochure from OHSA on guidelines for small business.

http://www.slideshare.net/ankenytemp/osha-for-small-business

I find it strange to read that Teflon can enter your system through the skin since I presume the size of the particles (microns) would be a factor in this ability. There are products out there such as Slik Dust (by Skin Strong) that are used by atheletes to dust their feet and shoes to prevent chaffing. They contain teflon also. My understanding is that Teflon is inert, that is the main reason that scrapings of the Teflon from cooking pans apparantly cause no harm if ingested. I am beginning to wonder if the Teflon scare is right up there with the mercury amalgam dental fillings. Many people have gotten their fillings replaced with conmposites instead and now they are finding that the composites contain bisphenals which has estrogen in it and along with the adhesives/binders used, are likely just as as toxic.

Reminds me of an often quoted 3rd graders report...

Socrates was a Greek philosopher who went around giving people good advice. They poisoned him.

Lisa,

To my knowledge, the particle size in typical dry lubricant teflon powders is about 2 to 10 microns. Intuitively, I would expect the skin to keep such a particle size out quite easily. Can you provide references for your statement that this is fine enough to enter the bloodstream through the skin?

(Nanoparticles are a different matter, of course. But the teflon in lubricating powders is not nano-sized.)

Then I suggest you take it up with avian veterinarians and professional parrot breeders, since that is what most of them recommend, instead of berating me for repeating the recommendation.

Just had this document come in from a colleague in Europe.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/4716.php

Mark- All my MSDS-bs es were in my tool case when it was stolen. I'll have to go look it up. Thanks for making me do this. I need new paperwork anyway.

Here is the link to the MSDS for powdered Teflon from Spurlock Specialty Tools. http://www.spurlocktools.com/id39.htm

The MSDS doesn't state anything about using the product as we do, directly applying it to friction points in the piano action.
Things that stuck out to me in this report are where the animal testing showed lung irritation after a single exposure. No skin irritant, but in the handling instructions, it states to avoid contact with eyes, skin and clothing. It also says to avoid contact with food and cigarettes.
I really would like to get answers because we're leaving this powdery stuff in pianos. Some of it will become airborne through the strings with all the other dust and stuff coming off the hammers through the strings when people play.

I don't think this MSDS is complete because it leaves out information for us like spill clean-up, disposal, and more clear information on irritant hazards instead of just stating that "exposure is unlikely".

This is the guide that is suggested reading on the powdered Teflon MSDS before reading the actual MSDS information:

http://www.fluoropolymers.org/news/APFOsafehandlingguide.pdf

On page 10 of this guide, there are statements on health hazards and toxicity. They are always talking about FPA's which are liquids. So since we use the product unheated and dry, the information is inconclusive. I'd err to the side of caution.

Well I just bought a new set of pans/pots (Tfal)and there instructions say season the pans
and don't overheat...and if you burn the pot toss it, isn't the current coating outlawed by 2015?
and thanks for the info about carpets..(stainmaster)

Hey Jean, two things I observed with the paste; it keeps the dust down to a minimum when working with this product. Secondly the alcohol draws the mix deeper into the buckskin. After a few applications over time, even when the knuckles are brushed the mixture remains impregnated in the buckskin to a certain degree. This cuts down on the use and handling of the product.