Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum Grey market questions, Yamaha C1

I recently looked at a used Yamaha C1, and was surprised to plug the serial number in and find it was not made for the American market. The seller said they are the original owner, and bought the piano new 10 years ago at a local dealership. The serial number does confirm it's a 10 year old instrument, so the story sort of checks out. Seller was friendly, and I assume honest.

How possible is it that a Massachusetts dealer sold a grey market piano as new piano 10 years ago? Perhaps there was an original owner in Japan for only a few months, and then the piano found its way to a less than honest dealer?

I assume Yamaha's serial number verification website is pretty accurate and more or less the final word on this?

Another question: why is it ok to play north American Yamaha pianos in places like Florida that have Japan-like humidity? I'm wondering what percentage of the grey market scare is science and what percentage is marketing.

My guess is the gray market thing is mostly marketing. Even in Australia, my own gray market piano hasn't had any problems. If you get a technician to check it out, as you should do whenever looking at a used piano, it shouldn't be much of a problem at all, except maybe in resale. And the fact that it is gray market also gives you probably more leverage in negotiation. C1 is a nice little piano. Best-

It really makes no sense if you consider the various climates and humidity levels of the United States.

I think the most important thing is to get whatever piano you have adjusted to a stable temperature and humidity controlled environment in your home.

I would love to get one of those Rick Jones pianos with a disclavier system in a gray market for an incredible price.

You might find this helpful as to your question about the validity of the C1 owners claims and some other questions you posed.

http://www.pianofinders.com/techtalk/graymarket.htm

Your link led to some very interesting reading, thank-you.

I certainly found myself agreeing with much of the writer's opinions and his solid logic. However; I would like to add some practical experience to the talk on 'Grey Market' pianos. I'm on the Oregon Coast, have worked with lots of dealerships, and have some input to offer to you that was not contained in those links.

The general argument against grey-market, on the basis of 'climate seasoning' does not strike me as valid. I've seen pianos come to the high humiidity of Oregon from Arizona and adjusted just fine. North American market? Do you mean Denver, which can hit Zero-humidity in mid-winter, or do you mean Maine, where the humidity can flex by 30% with each change in season? That argument is mostly humbug, I think.

More important, I think, is how the piano got here. Was the piano shipped in a sealed plastic bag, crated, and delivered in temperature controlled containers? That's what the manufacturers favor, as they know how critical than can be to the piano's welfare.

No. Grey market pianos raise flags for me because the shipping is often not as careful and controlled as a manufacturer shipping his product. Too many of the grey market pianos I've seen were appearently shipped in leaky containers on a slow ship. Rust, warped cabinetry, and dead bass strings. Salt corrosion and damage from sudden humidity changes.

So, as a dealer suggested to me, there are 'grades' within the grey market piano, too. Mostly to do with the shipping, and the amount of care, or not-care, that was taken in getting them here. Noting that a piano has a grey market serial number is never an instant bad-thing, it just means taking the time to make sure that it was properly shipped, and does not have hidden flaws from the shpping experience, more than anything else.

So, is your piano and A, B, or C grade grey market? Is it just fine, minor flaws, or a hidden tangle of rust, corrosion, and damaged pinblock/soundboard? Ask your technician, or pay one for a thorough look. The piano that started this thread? Probably just fine.

I am,
Only offering an opinion!

You are welcome. I was recently in the market for a piano, new or used, and spent months doing some research. Buying used locally (privately) has logistical problems and buying long distance could burn any savings in a heart beat with travel to look at the piano and then shipping costs. Also, when you buy privately it is always an "AS IS" sale with no warranty or recourse. After considering all my options, I finally wound up buying new (not Yamaha). Crunching the numbers highlighted a much smaller price difference than I would have thought.

Your comments regarding the shipping conditions of grey market pianos raises an excellent point and I don't know how anyone could verify the way a certain piano was shipped. This is certainly a very strong argument for never buying a used piano on the internet. The internet is great for most things but there are some, like puppies or pianos that should never be purchased in that manner. You need to sit down and play an instrument before spending 5k on a 20+ year old piano. (In my opinion).

In all fairness, I should note that my research did indicate that a large grey market piano dealer in the Washington DC area had very good reviews and only one product complaint (according to the BBB) that was addressed to the customer's satisfaction and the file was closed. That is an outstanding record for the amount of time this dealer has been in business. You could have that many, or more, complaints with new pianos. They also address the issue of the grey market head on and counter with the fact that they thoroughly refurbish each instrument and replace parts as necessary. They provide a warranty equal in time to a manufacture's warranty for new. I respect the fact that they do not try to use smoke and mirrors to avoid the issue. Had I decided to go this route, I would have probably traveled up there to have a peek and a sit down.

As you point out, the original poster has a bit of a different situation in that the current owner has had the piano for some time and he can physically play and inspect the instrument along with a tech. Problems arising from the original shipping methods would most certainly have surfaced by now.

Yamaha does not make the serial numbers easy to check because they are just good guys. They want to sell new pianos. Like you, I find the "U.S market" thing to be just spin. As in Japan, the climate here varies greatly from north to south, season to season, and even more so here because we also have a east to west factor. There may be valid reasons to steer clear of "container pianos" but the "built for the US" stuff is not one of them. I live in NC and nothing could be more fluctuating than the climate here... 100+ degrees in summer with some days at 98% humidity, below freezing (although not so much any more) winter nights with 30% humidity and in "spring" it can be 85 one day and 55 the next or change that much in just hours when a front comes through. This is why God invented air conditioners.

The out of market issue doesn't pass the smell test. Maybe 50 or a 100 years ago, before central A/C, but not now.

RE: Gray market vs Made for US.

Some issues do matter.

1. Some brands have transferable warranties (i.e. Kawai) within the first 10 years. Clearly this warranty will be void for a gray market Piano.

2. Shipping as mentioned is a big issue.

3. "Tip of the iceberg" issue. If the seller doesn't tell you (or lies) that its a gray market piano, what else are they not telling you?

4. Replacement parts. I looked at gray market U1s and my local tech did mention he found it more difficult to get parts for non-US U1s in the US. He seemed to imply that was Yamaha's doing.

Over the many, many, many years I have been posting here the issue of "seasoning for destination" for the US and grey market pianso has come up many times. Let me again provide the history of the practice in an attempt to make things clearer. I am in a unique position to explain this issue as my company, Jasons Music Center, founded by my grandfather 75 years ago, was the first Yamaha dealership in the US. We signed our original Yamaha Dealer Agreement in May, 1960.

In the 60s central heating and air-conditioning was very rare in Japan. In-home temperatures were controlled with room heaters and fans, neither of which significantly controls humidity. The wood used to build pianos for use in Japan were air dried to about 12%. This provided a fairly stable instrument for the typical Japanese home.

From 1960 until about 1965, these same pianos using air-dried woods were shipped to the US and sold through authorized dealerships. Soon many of these pianos started to exhibit problems, particularly those in the northern climates where central heating significantly dried typical homes. The most common problems were loose tuning and bridge pins, and some soundboard issues.

To their credit, Yamaha stood behind their warranty without hesitation. They always have done so.

My father, mother and I went to Japan in the mid-60s. As part of a two-day tour of the Yamaha factories ee were shown the wood kilns that had just been built to dry the woods used for pianos exported to the US to about 8%. This produced a stable piano for the US market, as both central heating and air-conditioning systems common in the US tend to dry homes. This is a factor in most parts of the US.

As HVAC began to be more commonly used in Japanese homes adjustments were made in the moisture content of pianos made for domestic (Japanese) use. Many of the grey market pianos were not built with the ~8% moisture content. Instead they sat in homes and teaching that over time often got HVAC installed and dried them somewhat. Some did not. there is no way to tell.

We were Yamaha dealers for 37 years and sold tens of thousands of new Yamaha pianos. We are now Kawai dealers and sell grey market Yamaha's as well. We have significantly more problems with grey market pianos we have sold, than we did with new Yamahas or currently with our Kawais. These problems, most often loose pins, general manifest during the first few years and are thus covered under our warranty. We either re-pin the pianos or replace them.

The bottom line is that purchasing a grey market pianos has higher risks, which are somewhat offset by their lower cost. Those sold by reputable dealerships who take their reputations seriously and warrant their grey market pianos well, are a good value.

I think Steve's wonderful explanation closes the thread. Well said sir!

I played a mid-1990's C1 in Jamaica this January, where the humidity is never under 65%. Back home I checked out the number, thinking that that would be an ideal gray market application. Turns out it was a U.S. export model. It was way out of tune and had broken strings, but no sticking keys.

Not that I’d dispute Steve’s claim about being the first Yamaha dealership in the US, it’s just that I’ve heard the same boast from at least a dozen other dealers and have always wondered at the claim’s significance, who really cares, and its doubtful status as a unique achievement or an indication of a dealer’s judgment, credibility, or honesty, even if it were true.

On the other hand, Yamaha’s claims about the gray market pianos are overblown, to say the least, and I seriously doubt used Yamahas have any more problems than any other used pianos built in the seventies and eighties, besides that there just seems to be more of them for sale, and certainly none that a modest amount of humidity control won’t help, as would be true of any used piano.


Mike

<<4. Replacement parts. I looked at gray market U1s and my local tech did mention he found it more difficult to get parts for non-US U1s in the US. -MAP>>

Correct. The company does not favor supplying parts for pianos that were not sold originally in this country. There is also the fact that there are several models, in the grey market, which were not sold or marketed over here; usually that is a cabinet issue, not the interior works, but that can also lead to problems.

The company support is for their dealerships, and the products they have sold to their customers. I have no problem with their focus on that. Trying to support, in the US, every piano and style they've ever sold on the planet would be a stretch. It is not unreasonable at all. (And their technical support is second to none!)

Truly,

What about pianos made 10 years ago? I've seen comments about the error Yamaha made in the '60s, but 40 years later were (are) they still making pianos for the Japanese market that cannot withstand a variety of climates? I've read that virtually all other manufacurers (including Kawai) have only one standard to which they treat wood - a sort of happy medium. So Yamaha is the only one not doing this? It sounds like a shortcoming as opposed to a feature to me.

If the piano I tried has a great sound, then the soundboard either has an approrpriate crown, or is making do without one, right? And given that it's 10 years old, problems due to poor shipping conditions would have shown themselves by now, right? Can poor shipping conditions plant ticking time bombs that reveal themselves only in the 11th or 12th year?

As far as parts support from Yamaha on the grey market pianos, can't most of the parts be obtained from other sources (generic parts like auto parts)?

My guess is yes, most likely.

The way I see it, there is a certain amount of risk involved in purchasing any pre-owned piano, grey market or not.

My vintage Yamaha C7 was made for the US market, but if it had been grey market, I would have bought it anyway.

Rick

Thanks so much for your expert comments on this subject. I see you are located in the DC area so that puts you pretty close to a big grey market dealer.

The bottom line is always "buyer beware". Less risk = mo money and less money invariably translates to higher risk. You can hedge your bet by some thorough research but you can never eliminate the risk factor completely when you buy anything used.

I just purchased a new K3 and loved the idea that the warranty was transferable. The local dealer was outstanding as well. For me, by the time you considered all the costs of looking at used pianos, tech fees, etc. the price gap between new and used was not as wide as it first appeared. After months of searching and investigations for new and used, I had narrowed it down to a new K3 or the U1 as final choices.

I'm sure that, had I lived in the DC area, I would have wound up in your dealership. I'm sure you run an excellent establishment.

Thanks. We think we do!

Here's how I've seen it work. Yamaha will not sell parts for a gray market instrument in the U.S. So, the technician finds a serial number from a North American market piano that's the same model, feeds it to Yamaha, and then Yamaha sells the parts. Probably everyone knows that the game is going on, but whether or not that's true, there's little Yamaha can do about it and it's done very frequently. (I personally watched all this unfold when a gray market U3 I had years ago needed parts.)

Hate to say it, but this seems very dishonest and underhanded to me... to deliberately lie in order to get parts for a piano... Something doesn’t seem right about this practice; what happened to just telling the truth?

Rick

Rick--put yourself in the position of someone who has spent thousands of dollars on an instrument, only to discover that for marketing reasons ONLY (there ain't nuthin' ethically or morally uplifing about Yammy's decision to not sell parts), the owner of the piano simply can't buy parts without their technician being forced to lie about it. Think about the consequences of letting the piano die in order to stay honest so that Yamaha can continue it's marketing strategy. Sorry. Gray market piano owners are unlikely to lose much sleep over this one in my view. The Catholics aren't even taking it to confession . . .

I'm not sure what parts you'd need to get directly from yamaha for a gray market piano. If you find yourself in need of parts, a rarity in itself, pins, wire, hammers, action parts, shanks, flanges, bridle straps, etc, felt, pedal assemblies the average tuner can order from a third party vendor, making the whole argument about lack of parts irrelevant and just another silly rumor, all of which can be ignored if you treat these pianos just like another used piano. Nor do I believe, in, er, most cases, are gray market pianos strapped to the open deck, continually awash. It is fun to read about, though.

Mike