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Thanks a lot Griffin, Eglantine and Rossy. All of your kind words really gave me new hope and energy. Yesterday I was really feeling hopeless, even though I know I need much more practice than I can do.
Originally Posted by Rostosky
Can you let us know what particular problems you are having with moonlight sonata, even for those with very small hands, there is usually a way. Can you reach an octave without problems? Let us know where the difficulty is , I am sure someone can help, dont be shy, thats what we are here for.
Yeah, I can reach an octave easily. But in the beginning section there is one note which is beyond an octave (I saw some people to use left hand crossing the right hand to play that, but technically that should be a stretch). That's where I face a lot of difficulties, though there are two more stretches where I don't have that much problems. And I'm always getting the feel that there is too much lack of expression. Anyway, I've to practice more. I'll rather record some of my practice and share with you so that you can understand my difficulties and correct me better. Thanks once again for your kind help!
Hi, Rupak! (Good morning, all!) I most definitely have "small hands" and can barely reach an octave myself-aaarrrgh! So, unfortunately, there are times you do whatever you have to do. It's not that you're lazy or don't want to, you just can't. And, you can develop injuries if you try to force your hand to do things it cannot/should not do. Rolling chords, dropping and/or substituting notes (but keeping within the "spirit of the music"), changing fingering are all little tricks you might have to use. So, that "technically it must be a stretch" line doesn't really hold water- so what, if another hand helps out as long as the end result is the same?
I seem to recall not too long ago a video of a pianist with NO HANDS..playing with his feet. (I haven't had my morning coffee yet, I think I saw this...)
anyways, don't get too discouraged, you're not alone. I've learned not too long ago, no matter what they say...size does matter!
ha!
Last edited by piano joy; 03/29/1206:06 AM.
I don't care too much for money. For money can't buy me love. -the Beatles
Good morning all! What a treasure trove of postings we have here! I can hardly wait to dig into these. In fact, it's a struggle for me to hold off on listening until later today. I have my piano lesson today, and I have a pretty full work agenda before my lesson happens. That only leaves me time this morning for either some piano practice or posting music. Geez! Some days setting priorities becomes a minute by minute decision making process! Off I go to the keyboard!
Beautiful Björk, Eglantine. Just right for this time of night.
Here's another restful piece; it's been a day fraught with interruptions that needed more time and effort than skills or challenges. Very unsatisfying.
How pleasant it is on RST to not have to think about a suitable departure from the current crop of piano pieces on the rack and decide where to kick off your mp3 player. Here we have such variety without having to choose and there's so much that we might not otherwise have considered. I feel blessed.
Back in the early eighties I used to spend two weeks of my summer at a Dominican priory, Spode House, in the midlands (UK) studying calligraphy. We used to listen to quiet, gentle music while we scratched softly at paper with our broad edged nibs and the more experienced of us stroked vellum with a hand-cut turkey quill. And if you want to know why the monks were celibate, take a turkey quill to vellum!
The music of the baroque period was on the list, of course, with Mozart symphonies, romantic adagios and such things as the pan pipes of George Zamfir. These days I suppose it would be 'New Age' music, birdcalls from the Brazilian rain forest and suchlike.
Then one summer we were joined by Joyce Teta, now working out of Winston Salem, NC, who brought us a tape of an American pianist whose work I now own much of on CD.
George Winston always transports me back to the peace and solace of Spode, far, far away from the consternation of business and the stresses of earning our quotidian crust.
Beautiful Björk, Eglantine. Just right for this time of night.
Here's another restful piece; it's been a day fraught with interruptions that needed more time and effort than skills or challenges. Very unsatisfying.
How pleasant it is on RST to not have to think about a suitable departure from the current crop of piano pieces on the rack and decide where to kick off your mp3 player. Here we have such variety without having to choose and there's so much that we might not otherwise have considered. I feel blessed.
Back in the early eighties I used to spend two weeks of my summer at a Dominican priory, Spode House, in the midlands (UK) studying calligraphy. We used to listen to quiet, gentle music while we scratched softly at paper with our broad edged nibs and the more experienced of us stroked vellum with a hand-cut turkey quill. And if you want to know why the monks were celibate, take a turkey quill to vellum!
The music of the baroque period was on the list, of course, with Mozart symphonies, romantic adagios and such things as the pan pipes of George Zamfir. These days I suppose it would be 'New Age' music, birdcalls from the Brazilian rain forest and suchlike.
Then one summer we were joined by Joyce Teta, now working out of Winston Salem, NC, who brought us a tape of an American pianist whose work I now own much of on CD.
George Winston always transports me back to the peace and solace of Spode, far, far away from the consternation of business and the stresses of earning our quotidian crust.
Richard, I couldn't agree more about this wonderful gem of a thread we have. I love this George Winston selection. In fact, I enjoy having the album. It was a pleasure to get home this evening and come to this thread and hear this wonderful piece. Just what I needed.
19 Spiders Online Google 03/30/12 12:41 AM Reading a post Forum: Adult Beginners Forum Thread: Rostoskys serious thread. (by request)
Only in men's imagination does every truth find an effective and undeniable existence. Imagination, not invention, is the supreme master of art as of life. -Józef Teodor Konrad Korzeniowski
hawgdriver, not sure i understand your post? Anyways folks, Good morning to all you dudes and dudettes! I am off to Piano lesson today, so, will be scarce till later on ( around five UK time) have a great day everyone, and if you are in the uK, then enjoy the last day of sun before the weather changes saturday. Dont go queuing up for fuel!!!
The priory sounds wonderfull Richard, I bet you miss it big time, How peacefull.
Excellent posts everyone, love the Bjorg Eglantine..
later.
Rise like lions after slumber,in unvanquishable number. Shake your chains to earth like dew which in sleep has fallen on you. Ye are many,they are few. Shelley
Only in men's imagination does every truth find an effective and undeniable existence. Imagination, not invention, is the supreme master of art as of life. -Józef Teodor Konrad Korzeniowski
unfortunately, there are times you do whatever you have to do. It's not that you're lazy or don't want to, you just can't. And, you can develop injuries if you try to force your hand to do things it cannot/should not do. Rolling chords, dropping and/or substituting notes (but keeping within the "spirit of the music"), changing fingering are all little tricks you might have to use. So, that "technically it must be a stretch" line doesn't really hold water- so what, if another hand helps out as long as the end result is the same?
I seem to recall not too long ago a video of a pianist with NO HANDS..playing with his feet.
I even saw some people telling that it's a cheat when you use your left hand to play the notes beyond an octave! But all of my hesitations are gone now. Thank you very much piano mom! I'm ready to *cheat* now!
I've recorded something while practicing. I'm really hesitated to post it here because it'll be worst ever post in this serious thread Anyway, here is the link: http://soundcloud.com/rupak-bhattacharya/moonlight-practice/s-c5xjH I badly messed up near the end I need more and more practice. I request all of you to suggest me the corrections and improvements.
Hi Rupak, your Moonlight sonata is beautifully played with a very even tempo and controlled dynamics. You don't seem to be having any problems with the stretch of a ninth but using the very lip of the keys while your hand is 'falling off the precipice', so to speak, might be a help.
The mistakes at the end I would ignore completely, they're obviously slips and don't sound as though they occur at every performance. They don't really affect what follows so they don't interfere with the mood of the piece. You're always going to have this sort of thing when recording or performing. And Beethoven himself wasn't immune from this - he never had the reputation of being Mr Precision!
Your tempo at the end of the piece is slower than at the beginning; if that's just nerves that's fine, but over time you'll want to reduce both the tempo and the overall dynamic level anyway (as long as you have tonal capacity).
This piece is tutto delicatissimamente - delicate throughout. It takes a long time to command a fine control of dynamics but it comes more quickly when you consciously try to develop it. This is a piece that allows you to do just that.
Consider this: the melody is the loudest part of each bar, the bass the next level. The first note of the first group of triplets is the third loudest, the first note of the third group the fourth loudest. The first note of the second and fourth group of triplets are next loudest, and the last two notes of each triplet group the quietest. That's six levels of tone in each bar and the whole piece is never louder than the climax (the mid point of bar 27) and that's not as loud as mezzoforte. Tough stuff! This is not grade 5 material in that respect.
There are just a couple of spots you might care to spend a little more time with in the immediate future, if I may be so bold. The climax of the piece occurs, as I mentioned, in bar 27 just before the decrescendo. Nothing in the piece should be louder than this. The crescendo in bar 48 reaches a peak of piano in bar 49.
Also in the dominant preparation passage the rising triplets in bars 32-35 begin their descent in bar 36. They must be counted still as triplets. Do not let them fall into pairs of quavers. Similarly in the coda. The continued triplet rhythm must be maintained thoughout the piece.
Well played!
btw, how was this recorded? I discerned a very feint sound in the white noise not unlike a distant telephone - it may be my tinnitus, I hear constant helicopters all day long! Can you detect it over the internet? And the initial recording?
Oh, and I thoroughly enjoyed your Adam Gyorgy post. Thank you for that.
Oh, oh, oh, I nearly forgot! Music is about what you hear, staff notation is a translation. If you can't hear what's played in the RH or LH it just doesn't matter. You can use your left toe or a pencil tied onto the end of your nose if you like, it just doesn't matter!
Sorry for taking up so much space - I'm taking advantage of Rossy's being away!
Rupak, sorry to be a bore! Regarding the dynamics at bar 49; it takes years, literally years, to control the dynamic range well enough to hit a particular dynamic level at whim. For this movement you have to learn to persuade the keys down rather than press. Don't beat yourself up if you can't manage it in a weekend, you won't, but having it in mind does at least have an effect.
I've been playing this piece, all three movements, since the late seventies. I know it intimately. I've gone over ten years without playing any of it and it still comes back to me within a week without ever having to refer back to the score.
I'm still trying to figure out how to listen to it ! I have to download it, right? so computer disabled ....and prefer to remain so, but you all keep forcing me to learn new things.
BTW, Rupak, it's important you know there are a zillion different "methods" of learning piano and it's the cause of many heated debates. So, yes, some people will say "that's cheating" and others will say " what's the end goal here? Making (beautiful) music or being rigid about how one's hands move around the keyboard?". Take your pick!
Richard, you are never a bore, sir! (wonder how old David bowie is now, thanks for the post!)
Last edited by piano joy; 03/30/1211:12 AM.
I don't care too much for money. For money can't buy me love. -the Beatles
Hi Richard, thank you so much for your precious suggestions and detailed analysis! Please never think that your suggestions would bore me! It's a great chance and honor for me to get your kind help.
Actually I'm quite illiterate in reading music and understanding the subtleties. I've just started learning piano and upgraded from computer keyboard to an actual keyboard! Probably moonlight sonata is too much for me to learn as the very first lesson. I'm quite sure if I'd have a piano teacher he would rebuke me for this! I'm very lazy and impatient too in learning staff notations as it takes a long time (with no music)!
But anyway, I've learned a little on reading music from a book, so I'll look carefully on the sheet of moonlight sonata and try to understand your suggestions. Thank you once again.
Can I request some more from you? If you have any of your recordings of moonlight sonata please give it to me. I can understand better in terms of music than sheet
There must be some online listening feature too on soundcloud so that without downloading also you can listen. Anyway, there is no harm on learning new things
I hate those who are rigid about technicalities rather than music! Of course if the technique is really helpful in the end it's always acceptable. I was just confused by reading so many worthless comments and staffs. So, please excuse me. I've already chosen your path, p.mom
btw, how was this recorded? I discerned a very feint sound in the white noise not unlike a distant telephone - it may be my tinnitus, I hear constant helicopters all day long! Can you detect it over the internet? And the initial recording?
...I've recorded it using Cantabile (it's another new thing I've learned!). I loaded the Kontakt vst in Cantabile and loaded Galaxy Vintage D in Kontakt. The output sound was directly recorded by Cantabile. So, in principle there should be no noise. Though the original recording was in wav format and I converted it into mp3. So there may be some degradation of the qualities during compression. But I've checked the uploaded mp3 also. I can't detect any noise. May be my ear is not sensitive enough!
Probably moonlight sonata is too much for me to learn as the very first lesson. I'm quite sure if I'd have a piano teacher he would rebuke me for this
Not a bit of it! If you were struggling with it he might have something to say but there's nothing in the recording to suggest it's beyond you. There's nothing wrong with learning pieces that stretch the technique as long as it doesn't lead to bad habits or frustration. Many times, it's the better option. There's nothing more detrimental to the development of technique than spending two weeks on a piece, finishing it and moving on.
It's much better to spend six months or a year on a piece that stretches the technique and challenges the imagination. When the brain has enough time to absorb the intricacies of a piece before the fingers master the technical difficulties the technique will blossom. Most of the time our technique develops not from learning new pieces but by playing and digging deeper into our memorised pieces. (This is why progress is so much faster with a good teacher - constant technical development, zero bad habits, frequent intellectual stimulation.)
Originally Posted by Rupak Bhattacharya
Actually I'm quite illiterate in reading music
'sTruth, Rupak! Are you telling me you learnt this by ear?! I'm not sure which one of us feels more honoured!
Ordinarily, when about to learn a new sonata by L van B I have a listen to Barenboim, Arrau, Kempff and Brendel (I have the complete cycles by these gentlemen). I would not say that one is better than the other save a few differences in individual sonatas. Barenboim has the fewest divergences from my own preferences, I think he brings the most intelligence to them. Brendel probably has the most depth but the least satisfying recordings (the engineer's performance not his) and Kempff nearly always has the greatest clarity (both his technique and the engineer's) and it's generally his that I listen to with the score. Arrau is the most likely to bring me to tears so I seldom follow the score with him. Such emotion!
It's difficult to describe but when I listen to Kempff the reverberant trebles echo round my head, knocking all the fluff out of it and leaving it clear and sparkling, like it's been freshly vacuum cleaned. The Hammerklavier posting I made the other day is an excellent example.
However, back to the present. I don't think there's a better performance than this on YouTube. Emil Gilels. Loud, but exquisitely articulated and my preferred tempo.
We'll put the noise in your recording down to my tinnitus!
Thanks once again Sir for your valuable suggestions and Emil Gilels' performance. I never heard of him. It's beautiful. It's even slower than Horowitz's performance. Almost all the time I listened to Kempff's interpretation and get amazed by his exquisite control!
Originally Posted by zrtf90
Originally Posted by Rupak Bhattacharya
Actually I'm quite illiterate in reading music
'sTruth, Rupak! Are you telling me you learnt this by ear?!
NOOO...there are some layman's way I found! I usually learn the notes using a midi file of the song and Synthesia. Synthesia can load midi files and play them in a beautiful visual layout of piano's 88 keys where the notes fall on. But for the intricacies, like dynamics and tempo, I've to learn by ear, by listening again and again to performances of the masters. So, when I play I've to memorize it instantly as I can't read it
![[Linked Image]]( https://www.pianoworld.com/forumpicts/MOYD_2011/MOYD_1.gif)
Anyway, here is the link:
Probably moonlight sonata is too much for me to learn as the very first lesson. I'm quite sure if I'd have a piano teacher he would rebuke me for this! I'm very lazy and impatient too in learning staff notations as it takes a long time (with no music)! 