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Originally Posted by jasperkeys
To me the "Bbsus9" is another way of saying the chord is a Bb11. You can create an 11th chord by using chrisbell's spelling of F, Ab, C, and Eb or abbreviating it by playing Ab/Bb as LadyChen suggested since the 5th of the chord is expendable unless it's the melody of course.

Concerning 11th chords: I never include the third in using 11th chords but sometimes I see books that go ahead and use it in theory. Sheet music that I've seen never includes the third unless the chord indicated is a minor 11th chord. To include the third just doesn't sound very good to me. Does anybody have a opinion on this?


The notation Bb11 is confusing. I've seen it more and more in pop music and I always have to explain to students that it's not a legit notation. Maybe I'm just old school but chords are built on thirds. Bb11 should include the major third and the natural eleventh. But that is clearly not the intention (in my experience) for the chord. Bbsus9 is correct. Minor chords have natural elevenths and major chords have # elevenths. The nat eleventh obscures the function of the major third.

On the other side of it, Bb13 should also technically include the natural eleventh right? But who does that? And we see that chord all over the place. Go figure.

Now all that said I think you can play whatever you want. And if you mean Bb11 (with the major third), then go for it.



Ilion #1861666 03/14/12 11:20 AM
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Quote
The notation Bb11 is confusing. I've seen it more and more in pop music and I always have to explain to students that it's not a legit notation. Maybe I'm just old school but chords are built on thirds.


As I'm pretty much self taught; my understanding of chords is from both books and how chords are labeled on pop music sheet music. My understanding of the practical application of an 11th chord is that it's an extended suspended 4th chord that includes the flatted 7th and the 9th therefore eliminating the third. As far a 13th chord I look at it as a 6th chord (like Bb major with a G note) that's extended to again include the flatted 7th and 9th.

I've never used an 11th chord with a #11. Is there a song or music piece that uses it?



"I wish there was a way to know you're in the good old days before you've actually left them." Andy Bernard
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Jasperkeys, I think that your process is as good as any. Observing practical application and figuring things out as they appear in printed music is totally valid. But it can lead to confusion.

The simple way to look at it, that is I hope simple, is that chords are built from the root up in thirds.

C-E-G-B-D-F-A

Another third up and you're back to the root, so the 13th is the last extension. Any note but the root may be altered up and/or down. (Well technically the root CAN be altered but that's beyond the scope of pop notation I think).

A 13 chord is supposed to include everything before it. But the 11 conflicts with the major third and is therefore not used (usually) unless it's sharped. The 11 does not conflict with the minor third so a m11 is common.

First song off the top of my head with a #11 is "Christmas Time Is Here" where the second chord is Eb7#11 (the #11 is the melody note).

An 11 chord isn't really an extended sus4 chord because the sus4 and the 11 are the same note. So Bbsus9 is the appropriate name for the chord.

Tango #1861808 03/14/12 02:49 PM
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Aughh! You're right; "Christmas Time is Here" is one of those. I even play it around Christmas time. How quickly I forget.


"I wish there was a way to know you're in the good old days before you've actually left them." Andy Bernard
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