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Re: scrambled chords [Re: keystring] #1860700
03/12/12 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by keystring
I did have a reason for mentioning, it however. Almost none of my theory books mention hearing at all. It is all done according to rules, and an intellectual identification of major, minor, augmented which can be done by counting semitones or even piano keys.

Hi KeyString,

I think of this process as almost "reverse theory", where one is making the music sort of fit the rules of harmony, instead of visa-versa. Unlike theory, this retro-fitting is far from exact.


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Re: scrambled chords [Re: Gary D.] #1860709
03/12/12 08:48 PM
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LoPresti, Whitman translated -- how disappointing. Reminds me of going to see one of the Raiders of the Lost Ark movies in France, and carefully searching out a movie theater showing it in English (with French subtitles). Imagine my dismay when after a long week I settled into a crowded theater, ready to soothe my homesick ears with Harrison Ford's familiar voice, and lo and behold what came out of the loudspeakers... French! Turns out that this theater was original language on weekdays only. On weekends it was dubbed.

Gary D., you're right, flute and piano. I couldn't find a pianist and had to persuade the judge to let me play the flute part alone when I showed up solo. Come to think of it, I've never heard both parts. Will track down a recording and rectify that.


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Re: scrambled chords [Re: LoPresti] #1860718
03/12/12 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by LoPresti
Originally Posted by keystring
I did have a reason for mentioning, it however. Almost none of my theory books mention hearing at all. It is all done according to rules, and an intellectual identification of major, minor, augmented which can be done by counting semitones or even piano keys.

Hi KeyString,

I think of this process as almost "reverse theory", where one is making the music sort of fit the rules of harmony, instead of visa-versa. Unlike theory, this retro-fitting is far from exact.

There is a bit of a discussion off in the composer's lounge on that. Where first off real music was examined to extrapolate from it patterns which become the rules of harmony, which then get taught, and then there is the danger of thinking that this is how music must be written. An absurd side note involves the chapter which shows what Bach did, and then warns students not to "break the rules that Bach broke" in the subsequent exercise. grin The book is great for passing exam material. How is it for writing music, I wonder?

My real emphasis however was the aspect of the ear. Because in what you wrote before, an analysis of "which notes fit" can be done rather theoretically/intellectually, OR by using the ears or combination of both ear and theory.

Re: scrambled chords [Re: LoPresti] #1860729
03/12/12 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by LoPresti
Since no one else is volunteering, I'll take a stab at this.

Thanks for your comments. I'm not sure I've got it, but I'll try working on your suggestion.

For me, having the chords notated is a great aid in reading the music. Also, for the American Songbook, the chord motion vi, ii, V7, I, also helps in figuring out the music, and, of course, the chord progressions are essential for jazz. Given that it's somewhat "illegal" for classical pianists to have the chords notated, why is chord study so important?

Bob





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Scrambled chords [Re: OldFingers] #1860780
03/12/12 11:44 PM
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Originally Posted by OldFingers
Originally Posted by LoPresti
Since no one else is volunteering, I'll take a stab at this.

Thanks for your comments. I'm not sure I've got it, but I'll try working on your suggestion.

Bob,

I undoubtedly should have first asked, "Are you already familiar with the theory of keys and chord construction?" If I write, "Stack the notes in thirds", do you already know what that entails? In your reference to jazz chord notation, can you build, say, an E minor 9th in root position.

If YES, then you can tackle this. If you would like to start another thread with this topic, I'll be happy to contribute., as we are detracting from Gary's actual topic.
Ed



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Re: scrambled chords [Re: keystring] #1860792
03/13/12 12:19 AM
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Originally Posted by keystring
My real emphasis however was the aspect of the ear. Because in what you wrote before, an analysis of "which notes fit" can be done rather theoretically/intellectually, OR by using the ears or combination of both ear and theory.

Well, as you already know, the distinction between [1] classical theory (say the construction of chords), and [2] the actual music itself, including harmonization, and [3] then making the actual music "fit back into" classical theory; is very, VERY STICKY!

As Bob will see, when he arrives at measure #3, there will be a very traditional F major sonority in the harmony, with a strong and sustained B played against it in the melody. Most traditional theory systems (even jazz theory) would treat this as Fmaj7#11. BUT, my ear (the good one!) hears this as a simple F major with a suspended raised 4th, especially since it resolves to the 3rd.

I suppose my first inclination is to try stacking the thirds, and see if it looks like a reasonable (traditional) chord. Then I try playing just that chord along with the melody. Here (HEAR) the ear takes over, and if the melody sounds "correct" against this chord, I call it "good", and go onto the next. If we have a significant dissonance, as measure #3 above, then we need a little more analysis.

Knowledge of theory + use of musical ear = Spelling of Harmonic Structure (but still STICKY!)
Ed


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Re: scrambled chords [Re: Overexposed] #1860826
03/13/12 01:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Ann in Kentucky

Once you have doublings, then would chords technically be called inversions anymore? I would think it's beyond 1st inversion, 2nd inversion.

C E G is a "C chord". You must have at least one of each (although C and E OR E and G, alone, will suggest the whole chord, in context of other chords. This is something rather hard to explain.)

But for the moment stick with that rule. You must have one of each, anywhere, and you can have as many doubled as you wish. Think of a complete orchestra playing, with many instruments.

The inversion is determined **solely by the bass note**.

This means that if you are playing, for instancce E G C in the right hand, E4 G4 C5 but you are playing in a jazz group, the bass player determines the inversion. If he (or she) is playing C, it is root. If E, first inversion. If G, second inversion. That's it.

Very imprecise, right? That's why the only way to get exact voicings is to either read them in standard notation or to have such a killer ear that you can just listen and reproduce anything you hear, perfectly.

I'm not that good. I'm not even CLOSE to that good. I once heard that Argerich learned at least part of a Prokoview concerto just by hearing it. (That may be just a story, but it may be true.)

Derek Paravicini is the best at it of anyone I've ever seen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derek_Paravicini

Quote

I guess that's what you're saying. With doublings they are not inversions (much less "turned up" or down). Now I see why "scrambled chords" is how you're describing them.


Well, they are still called inversions, but the term inversion no longer is a very good description. wink

Last edited by Gary D.; 03/13/12 02:11 AM.

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Re: scrambled chords [Re: OldFingers] #1860827
03/13/12 01:59 AM
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Originally Posted by OldFingers
Given that it's somewhat "illegal" for classical pianists to have the chords notated, why is chord study so important?

Bob

There is nothing a bit "illegal" about notating chords, in any manner. However, I think you will find that most people usually keep a sort of diagram of what is going on in the head. But I break down chords for all my students, in any kind of music. smile

Last edited by Gary D.; 03/13/12 02:01 AM.

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Re: scrambled chords [Re: LoPresti] #1860860
03/13/12 05:18 AM
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Originally Posted by LoPresti
Originally Posted by OldFingers
This question might be inappropriate for this forum, but the discussion regarding scrambled chords is of considerable interest to me as a student, as I need some guidance on how to unscramble chords. . . . . Is there a methodology for identifying scrambled extended chords?

Since no one else is volunteering, I'll take a stab at this.

Ed, you are a brave man!

I think essentially that we never know for sure what chord we are playing without context the moment things become complicated or sophisticated. I think the most important point you made was that at any moment it is a matter of practicality whether or not we include the melody in chords we are analyzing. The whole idea of non-harmonic tones is drilled relentlessly into the minds of students learning traditional music, but it gets a whole lot more complicated from Debusssy on, moving into jazz.

Chords using only the notes within an octave usually have a tendency to "retain their quality" regardless of voicing or inversion, when they CAN be stacked in 3rds. A dominant seven chord always sounds like a dominant seven chord.

But the moment you throw in a "color" tone, all bets are off. Consider for a moment this:

CDEG, a very common sound today. Is the D a second or a nine? In that form, I would call it C (add2), but move that D and throw in the 7th - C E G Bb D - and I will only hear it as a C9 chord. And then is it C9 or Em7-5/C? I'd write C9, but at some point complicated jazz chords start to sound like poly-chords. What is C G E // A D E F# A, with // showing a split between hands.

C 13 #11 chord? Or a "dirty D major chord, with 2 added" played over top a C chord? At some point notation is needed to show exactly what we have in mind, if we want other people to use the voicings we come up with. Any chord system is going to be woefully inadequate, which is why all the jazz players I know say, "Just listen and play!"

Obviously studying chords and scales gets you close, in the beginning, but at some point you get to the point where the only difference between right and wrong is "our own pleasure", and that takes us right back to Debussy. wink

Last edited by Gary D.; 03/13/12 05:19 AM.

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Re: scrambled chords [Re: Gary D.] #1860881
03/13/12 07:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Gary D.



The inversion is determined **solely by the bass note**.



Gary, thank you for this explanation. Very helpful! I had not thought about it this way. smile


Re: Scrambled chords [Re: LoPresti] #1860941
03/13/12 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by LoPresti
I undoubtedly should have first asked, "Are you already familiar with the theory of keys and chord construction?"

Unfortunately when I was first learning to play the piano I did not have a Gary D. to set me on the right path, and it was only a few years ago that I discovered the circle of 5ths. As an engineer this was a revelation to me as it made all the keys, scales and chords clear. I used to spends hours going around the circle playing each of the chords in the scale. But it's one thing to be asked to play chord X, and another to see the notes "scrambled" and identify chord X, particularly if it is an extended chord. From this discussion, I can see why. Thanks again to you and Gary D. for trying to help.

Originally Posted by LoPresti
., as we are detracting from Gary's actual topic.

I apologize for this and will scurry back to the ABF where I belong. I've never been to this forum before, but the topic of "scrambled chords" caught my eye and I couldn't resist.


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Re: Scrambled chords [Re: Gary D.] #1861014
03/13/12 11:27 AM
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I've started a thread on Identifying extended chords in the ABF, in hopes that the side discussion will continue.


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Scrambled chords [Re: Gary D.] #1861066
03/13/12 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Gary D.
Ed, you are a brave man!

I think essentially that we never know for sure what chord we are playing without context the moment things become complicated or sophisticated. . . . but at some point complicated jazz chords start to sound like poly-chords. What is C G E // A D E F# A, with // showing a split between hands. . . . . . Obviously studying chords and scales gets you close, in the beginning, but at some point you get to the point where the only difference between right and wrong is "our own pleasure", and that takes us right back to Debussy. wink

Well, Gary, “Brave” or “Foolish”? Sometimes the lines blur.

As we have said many times, the music is the music (sound), and any attempts at categorizing or analyzing are destined to fall short. BUT, without those efforts at systematizing, our (YOUR) ability to pass this stuff along to younger generations becomes almost impossible. And, after all, we are working on Moon River here, not La Mer.

One last thought is that a good, comprehensive system for analyzing your C6 / 9 #11 will “stand the test” of most anything anyone wants to throw at it, although we need to employ more linear techniques as we venture into Berg, Weburn, late Stravinski, and Cecil Taylor. BUT, the problem shifts: the analysis itself becomes so complex that it no longer simplifies or codifies what is happening in the music. Instead of the tool clarifying what is happening in the sound, the music is clearer than the light the tool might shed on it.

Ed


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Scrambled chords [Re: OldFingers] #1861071
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Originally Posted by OldFingers
I apologize for this and will scurry back to the ABF where I belong. I've never been to this forum before, but the topic of "scrambled chords" caught my eye and I couldn't resist.

Bob,

I certainly did not intend to embarass in any way! I believe your question is a very interesting (and challenging!) one, and certainly ties into Gary's scrambled eggs. It is just that the extent of discussion we need to properly address it will almost certainly divert his original intent.

With that in mind, I sincerely hope you will follow us back over to PianoStudent88's new-created thread.

Ed


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Re: Scrambled chords [Re: Gary D.] #1861085
03/13/12 01:37 PM
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Warning: edging toward vague and philosophical:
When I started with this some years ago, I had whatever chords were already in my ear (lots of Alberti bass), and then the formal theory that begins with stacked thirds which look like snowmen, which then unstack to become lopsided snowmen. It was a handy way of recognizing and defining things.

Then I got to the formal harmony theory which is 4 part harmony. You get "suspensions" which are still your snowman, but the head, body, or torso of one snowman has decided to linger a little bit while the next snowman is already there, until finally it gets its full natural body ("resolves"). Sound-wise you get a dissonance that eases into an "ah!" like tight shoes coming off.

But then you get into other kinds of music and chords. Now you get a "sus chord" which isn't a delayed disappearance of a snowman: it is a thing in and of itself. You get sounds and effects for the purpose of being what they are. That chord is a thing in and of itself.

And then you get chords which are deliberately ambiguous, neither this nor that, and on the way to suggesting this and that while becoming who knows what.

It seems that on the one hand we need definite definitions and probably more than one way of looking at the same thing. On the other hand, real music is not that black and white. If we are restrained to those definitions then the music we compose or improvise will be likewise as restrained, and what we manage to hear in the music we play might filter out those things that don't follow the rules.

Re: Scrambled chords [Re: OldFingers] #1861141
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Originally Posted by OldFingers
...it was only a few years ago that I discovered the circle of 5ths. As an engineer this was a revelation to me as it made all the keys, scales and chords clear. I used to spends hours going around the circle playing each of the chords in the scale. But it's one thing to be asked to play chord X, and another to see the notes "scrambled" and identify chord X, particularly if it is an extended chord.

In my own teaching I continuously hammer on the concept of "the circle", but I don't talk about the circle of 5ths as much as "where does this want to go to"? And also, "How did we get HERE?" smile

So using a key, I likes to go to IV, C likes to go to F, then V wants to go back to I, G to C. That's your circle. ii wants to go to V, Dm to G. Then you get to Moon River and off you go with this baseline, the one you pointed out: F# to B to E to A to D to G.

Such a "strong baseline" tends to use all root position chords, and when that happens you are given a great foundation in the way chords move.

I THINK that for most people root position chords help give clues to the chords that are NOT root position, since it is very common to have an inversion sandwiched between two root position chords. This may be simplistic, but it is a start. Sometimes you may see a couple non-root position chords between two very strong root position chords.

Traditional:

*C* to G/D to C/E to *F* to C/G to *G* to *C*: I, V6/4, I6, IV, I6/4, V, I

All of a sudden you you had a bassline that ascends in a scale.

That same kind of thing happens in jazz/pop, but you get 6s and 7s and color tones thrown in.

And as you very well know, this kind of thing frequently happens:

Em7 to A7 to Dm7 to G7 to G turns into Em7, Eb7, Dm7, Db7, C something. I call that "slithering", but you will often read about "tritone substitutions". In these progressions (you can do them in any key and use Roman numerals) the chords are all root position, so the "scrambling" does not fool you about what the chords are.

Perhaps one of the most difficult things for people who have not played a very long time is trying to figure out what is happening when the left hand is mostly playing "lean inversions" towards the middle of the piano. I'm thinking now of something that starts:

Cmaj7/G, Gaug, Cmaj7/G, F7-5, Em7, Cmaj7/E - C6/E, Gm/A, Gm...

All open voicings, but the roots are missing for important chords. When this is repeated, suddenly a strong bass line is added. But when you see things like G3 C4 E4 in the LH, with a sole B in the RH, in my mind that is pretty much idiomatic, and students who have not seen a ton of chords like this are often disoriented.
Quote

I apologize for this and will scurry back to the ABF where I belong. I've never been to this forum before, but the topic of "scrambled chords" caught my eye and I couldn't resist.

You have not detracted from anything. *I* may be losing everyone. It takes me years to build the basics for students to the point where they start finding all the chords in all kinds of music. smile

Last edited by Gary D.; 03/13/12 03:15 PM.

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Re: Scrambled chords [Re: Gary D.] #1861293
03/13/12 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Gary D.
In my own teaching I continuously hammer on the concept of "the circle", but I don't talk about the circle of 5ths as much as "where does this want to go to"? And also, "How did we get HERE?" smile

A few years ago, when I was finishing up Alfred's AIO Level 3, I was learning the Prelude in C Major. As usual I labelled the chords to help me play it, and during my lesson, my teacher got all excited talking about the chord movement. He loved the appearance of the diminished chord to fool the listener creating a mystery of where we were going next. It seemed it was a conversation he had had bottled up inside and was waiting for the moment to let it all out. It was thrilling for me to be able to understand the conversation and appreciate his enthusiasm.

Originally Posted by Gary D.
So using a key, I likes to go to IV, C likes to go to F, then V wants to go back to I, G to C. That's your circle. ii wants to go to V, Dm to G.

The only point I would add about seeing the entire circle is the fact that it shows a closed system. When I was a beginning student, eons ago, one would learn a scale, play some pieces, add a sharp or flat and repeat. I got up to about three flats and gave up. Had someone exposed me to the circle, I would not only have seen how the I, IV and V chords related, but I would have seen the whole system, and more importantly, that everything was the same. One just moves another notch around the circle, and it's not just a bunch of rules to punish the student. If only I had had a Gary D.

Originally Posted by Gary D.
*C* to G/D to C/E to *F* to C/G to *G* to *C*: I, V6/4, I6, IV, I6/4, V, I

All of a sudden you you had a bassline that ascends in a scale.

This is brilliant. I have not seen that explanation before and its exactly the sort of thing I'm encountering in the Al Lerner arrangements. I could hear the baseline movements, but I didn't think to look for inversions of the standard chord progressions. I guess it's probably standard cocktail piano. Thanks for the lesson. Now I'm going to show my ignorance by asking why you write: I, V6/4? Wouldn't it be I, V/ii? So what does the 6 and 4 refer to?

Originally Posted by Gary D.
And as you very well know, this kind of thing frequently happens:

Em7 to A7 to Dm7 to G7 to G turns into Em7, Eb7, Dm7, Db7, C something. I call that "slithering", but you will often read about "tritone substitutions". In these progressions (you can do them in any key and use Roman numerals) the chords are all root position, so the "scrambling" does not fool you about what the chords are.

I have tried to understand the "tritone" substitution, but without success. It might be my age, as learning this stuff definitely gets harder, but if you would like to try, I'd appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Gary D.
Perhaps one of the most difficult things for people who have not played a very long time is trying to figure out what is happening when the left hand is mostly playing "lean inversions" towards the middle of the piano. I'm thinking now of something that starts:

Cmaj7/G, Gaug, Cmaj7/G, F7-5, Em7, Cmaj7/E - C6/E, Gm/A, Gm...

All open voicings, but the roots are missing for important chords. When this is repeated, suddenly a strong bass line is added. But when you see things like G3 C4 E4 in the LH, with a sole B in the RH, in my mind that is pretty much idiomatic, and students who have not seen a ton of chords like this are often disoriented.

I must confess that I'm not exactly sure of what you are getting at here. Probably something too difficult for me to understand in print.

Originally Posted by Gary D.
*I* may be losing everyone. It takes me years to build the basics for students to the point where they start finding all the chords in all kinds of music. smile

Well I'm still here as I find the subject fascinating. Thanks for indulging me.

There is one comment I'd like to make about chords though, which no one seems to discuss. Perhaps it's obvious, but I am amazed that one can learn to see a symbol and know the "allowable" notes without reading anything. I know that an advanced student can see an array of notes and know the chord, but for a beginner or an intermediate student having the "language" of chords whereby the symbol immediately translates to notes is a marvelous aid to learning to play.

Thanks again to Gary D. for allowing me to participate. It was fun.


Aspiring Retirement Home Lounge Pianist
Re: Scrambled chords [Re: OldFingers] #1861491
03/14/12 01:03 AM
03/14/12 01:03 AM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,304
New York
L
LoPresti Offline
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LoPresti  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,304
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Originally Posted by OldFingers
Now I'm going to show my ignorance by asking why you write: I, V6/4? Wouldn't it be I, V/ii? So what does the 6 and 4 refer to? . . . . . Thanks again to Gary D. for allowing me to participate. It was fun.

Bob,

I do not know if Gary simply missed this question of yours, but it is a good one, and I would hate to see it fall through those proverbial cracks!

This gets kind of messy >>> Ordinarily, as you already know, when a digit or two follow the name of a chord, those digits represent interval extensions built above the root of the triad. So, obviously, C6 is the symbol for C + E + G + A. Dm9 is the symbol for D + F + A + C + E.

HOWEVER, in classic harmony the 6/4 designation, following the Roman numeral, indicates a particular VOICING of that chord. Thus, in the key of C major, I 6/4 indicates the second inversion of the Tonic triad in close position: G + C + E . In this case, the digits do represent intervals, but intervals built upon the 5th of the chord. (a perfect 4th above G is C. A major 6th above G is E.)

Again, textbook harmony or theory (Bach Chorale style) a very frequent final cadence is (I 6/4) - (V 7) - ( I ).
Ed



In music, everything one does correctly helps everything else.
Re: Scrambled chords [Re: LoPresti] #1861494
03/14/12 01:13 AM
03/14/12 01:13 AM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 6,495
South Florida
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Gary D. Online content OP
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Gary D.  Online Content OP
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 6,495
South Florida
Originally Posted by LoPresti
Originally Posted by OldFingers
Now I'm going to show my ignorance by asking why you write: I, V6/4? Wouldn't it be I, V/ii? So what does the 6 and 4 refer to? . . . . . Thanks again to Gary D. for allowing me to participate. It was fun.

Bob,

I do not know if Gary simply missed this question of yours, but it is a good one, and I would hate to see it fall through those proverbial cracks!

This gets kind of messy >>> Ordinarily, as you already know, when a digit or two follow the name of a chord, those digits represent interval extensions built above the root of the triad. So, obviously, C6 is the symbol for C + E + G + A. Dm9 is the symbol for D + F + A + C + E.

HOWEVER, in classic harmony the 6/4 designation, following the Roman numeral, indicates a particular VOICING of that chord. Thus, in the key of C major, I 6/4 indicates the second inversion of the Tonic triad in close position: G + C + E . In this case, the digits do represent intervals, but intervals built upon the 5th of the chord. (a perfect 4th above G is C. A major 6th above G is E.)

Again, textbook harmony or theory (Bach Chorale style) a very frequent final cadence is (I 6/4) - (V 7) - ( I ).
Ed


Right, though this traditional Roman numeral system is really a kind of weird cross between figured bass and what we do today with letters.

I 6/4 (sorry that I can't put the numbers over top of each other where they belong) says that if the key is C, the chord will be a C chord with G on the bottom. Then the numbers are computed by the intervals:

G to C = 4, G to E = 6.

But it doesn't say anything about voicing or duplications, so that could be:

G E G//C G C

And in SATB:

G2 E3//C4 G4

That would take a bit of unscrambling to get it down to G C E or I 6/4 or C/G smile


Piano Teacher
Re: Scrambled chords [Re: Gary D.] #1861553
03/14/12 06:44 AM
03/14/12 06:44 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,571
Canada
keystring Offline
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keystring  Offline
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Re Ed's
Quote
Again, textbook harmony or theory (Bach Chorale style) a very frequent final cadence is (I 6/4) - (V 7) - ( I ).

The way harmony theory is taught formally is inside the "Bach Chorale style" and it is a simplified version of what happens in this four part harmony (voice). Only one book I had bothers to explain that a) it's simplified b) later music may have grown out of this but has also grown beyond it. The books formalize (and formulize?) things into different rules.

The "6/4" chords are second inversion chords such as C/G, Cm/G, G/D, Bb/F etc. In their effort to have solid formulas within the context of "simplified chorale style" they treat the 6/4 with kid gloves, because the voicing makes the chord ambiguous. In this particular progression:

(I 6/4) - (V 7) - ( I )
In G major you'd have C/G - G7 - C.
The V7-I creates a cadence which concludes a phrase (G7-C). Going backward, your I 6/4 or C/G has the G in the bass, which leads nicely to the full G7 chord. It's a neat formula that brings us straight into the cadence and is used a lot. That's especially in our chorale world.

In Gary's V 6/4 (in C major it would be G/D) we have the 2nd note of the scale on the bottom, and the chord simply is part of the steady downward slide of the bass line. Because "64 chords" are so ambiguous they lend themselves nicely to such things. A V chord is so clearly the Dominant of something, but with the D on the bottom this effect becomes muted.

Where do the numbers 6/4 come from? This is "figured bass", where you consider a chord in closed position and you count up from the bass note. In G/D, the bottom note is D, and if you count from the bottom, G is B is 6 up from the bass D, and G is 4 up from that D. I learned the "why" of it once and then simply memorized that 64 = 2nd inversion = G/D.

The 7 of V7 functions the same way, because the F in a G7 chord is 7 notes up from the bass.

[What irks me at times is that numbers are used different ways. When somebody says "four" does he mean 4 or IV? And "six" can mean 6 as in a 6/4 above, or vi, or the jazz notation 6 of a C6.]

Last edited by keystring; 03/14/12 06:45 AM.
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