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Hi, I'm new here but if you don't mind I would like to add my few 'cents' as a lurker and trained technician.
Although the PTG is invaluable as a hive mind, I myself will never become a member. These are some of the reasons why:
- The PTG makes paid advertisements against non-RPT's, trying to convince the public that they should only hire an RPT. Although it may be a good initial guideline for people to go by, trying to tell the public that a non-RPT is not to be trusted is deceitful as well as a mafia mentality. There are various skill levels of technicians both members and non members.
- With that in mind, they promote themselves as an institution of higher learning when they are not. Granted they are a valuable source of information, but they are not an organization for beginners. Although their mandate calls for educating beginners, it can fail at the local chapter level, when members don't have time or reason to help newer members. I think the guild should not pretend to be an institution of higher learning and promote itself for what it really is - a club.. or essentially, a Guild.
-Contrary to their policies, the PTG has a history of excluding, or making membership difficult, to certain groups of people. This is not just hearsay. I have experienced it myself, as well have other technicians that I am close to. I wouldn't feel comfortable going into detail for fear of repercussions to my own business or to others. I used a Mafia analogy before, if I could say it in the nicest possible way.
Unfortunately the organization as a whole doesn't enforce a strong code of conduct upon its members, or turns a blind eye. It comes down to people on an individual level.. people who are all different. Yes, some rotten apples could spoil a bunch. But that's not the problem. Every PTG member I have met so far is a wonderful human being.. and that's saying a lot. It's human nature when people get into a pack that makes me cautious. The organization lets a lot of good people slip through the cracks. Like some of our colleagues here that lost their RPT status by letting their dues lapse.
I understand that there are many positive aspects to membership, especially the opportunity for fellowship and continued learning. However these are things you don't need to be a member to take part in. There are alternative organizations, chapter meetings are sometimes open for a fee, and conventions, whether PTG or not, are always open.
An aside.. I'm surprised at the people who don't want to set a temperament by ear. Really?
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......I offer my expertise free of charge. All you have to do is contact me about it, have a piano and a web cam and I'm yours for the asking.
I can personally attest that Bill, as do other members of PTG, offers his time liberally to sincerely interested people. He has assisted me immeasurably in understanding and setting up my TuneLab program to deliver EBVTiii, with great (and much appreciated!) results. Rick
MPT(Master Piano Technicians of America) Member AMICA (Automated Musical Instruments Collector's Association) (Subscriber PTG Journal) Piano-Tuner-Rebuilder/Musician www.actionpianoservice.com DEALER Hailun Pianos
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Wipperwill:
Welcome Aboard!
Jeff Deutschle Part-Time Tuner Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
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I find much of this very interesting and informative. PTG should listen up, I think. I (like or unlike) happen to agree with much of what is said in here about them. I would also like to see less explaining by RPT's on why the PTG does this or that (that can always come later) because I'm afraid that the non members will be likely to not post anything ( or less ) then as this is a forum for them so that all of us can hear what it is they have to say.
Jerry Groot RPT Piano Technicians Guild Grand Rapids, Michigan www.grootpiano.comWe love to play BF2.
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I think I can understand why some PTG drop outs think it is unfair to have to go all through the testing again to regain RPT status. Personally, I would not have a problem with it.
Bill, Let me clarify my position on this. I did say that I did not want to go through the retesting procedure. I can understand why they do this. As in any profession, there are those who might let their skills slip. After 20 plus years out of PTG, how can the organization be sure that I am still up to the standards they require. I just do not want to go through the procedure again, a personal choice for various reasons. Nothing against PTG.
Last edited by wcctuner; 03/13/12 09:43 AM.
Dave Forman Piano Technician, Westminster Choir College of Rider University
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The retesting for members who let their membership lapse is simply a money grab. It is ludicrous to assume that failure to keep up with membership or dues is in any way tied in with a loss of competancy. If this were the case, every school in the world would be charging yearly fees for graduates to retain their diplomas or credentials.
Piano Technician George Brown College /85 Niagara Region
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The retesting for members who let their membership lapse is simply a money grab. It is ludicrous to assume that failure to keep up with membership or dues is in any way tied in with a loss of competancy. If this were the case, every school in the world would be charging yearly fees for graduates to retain their diplomas or credentials. I understand that one of the main reasons for the new testing procedures is that there were complaints about unfair testing as a means of getting some people in and keeping some people out of the Guild. So I can see reasoning behind requiring retesting. But it bothers me that a higher road was not taken. Those that may have been testing unfairly were neither cleared nor condemned. It makes me think of Clockwork Orange.Frankly, I think the new testing guideline were tailored to use a new toy and shove it down everyone's throats: the ETD. And the pass/fail level was built around setting the temperament with CM3s to the detriment of tuning small pianos.
Jeff Deutschle Part-Time Tuner Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
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When I let my membership laps, I was given the choice of re- testing or paying all the back dues. That would have been mid 1980's.
Last edited by rxd; 03/13/12 02:37 PM.
Amanda Reckonwith Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England. "in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.
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When I let my membership laps, I was given the choice of re- testing or paying all the back dues. That would have been mid 1980's. This clearly says it's about the money doesn't it?
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I called the home office in 2005 and asked to pay back dues instead of re testing, and was turned down. It would have come to at least $2000 in back dues. I wasn't very happy at having to re-test, and I complained about it on these forums, but it was a good refresher/learning experience and in the end, I found it beneficial.
I feel all PTG members should take the written test every 5 years...(easily done at chapter meeting, or maybe even on line) and each member should tune a piano for the chapter every 10 years. If the informal tuning for the chapter sounds like garbage, the tuner could be referred for re take of the tuning test. There should be mandatory continuing education - even if it's only watching a webinar.
I don't believe in the once an RPT, always an RPT. We need to earn it every day. Many do. Some don't.
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I feel all PTG members should take the written test every 5 years...(easily done at chapter meeting, or maybe even on line) and each member should tune a piano for the chapter every 10 years. If the informal tuning for the chapter sounds like garbage, the tuner could be referred for re take of the tuning test. There should be mandatory continuing education - even if it's only watching a webinar.
I don't believe in the once an RPT, always an RPT. We need to earn it every day. Many do. Some don't.
That's interesting Bob. I'm not quite of that opinion about RPT's required testing every 5 years, but I DO think that if PTG offered a CE (continuing education) membership opportunity, it would make sense to continue education...obviously. AND, I'd personally LOVE to train/test/check my work at any and every PTG opportunity, conventions et al. So, here's at least one non-member who recognizes the opportunity to learn and train. But, why the emphasis on any particular status or standing? It makes no difference in the trade, in my experience anyway. But, in truth, getting a large body of people who tested for RPT status to ever agree that another membership alongside for those not interested in RPT status is possible, is never going to happen. In Michigan, land surveyors got together and lobbied for tough NEW laws for all NEW surveyors, and its kept many NEW people out of the trade. That worked really well for the old-timers for a good long time. Then, eventually they had nobody to sell their practices to. Getting the old guard to agree to expand membership is probably similar...why "dilute" what they've already accomplished by diffusing membership? Why indeed. Rick PS By the way, I've had conversations with more than a few prominent PTG members who also question the direction of PTG...I think this is healthy, and I don't read this as disloyal or disrespectful...I hope my own comments are viewed in a good light also. R
MPT(Master Piano Technicians of America) Member AMICA (Automated Musical Instruments Collector's Association) (Subscriber PTG Journal) Piano-Tuner-Rebuilder/Musician www.actionpianoservice.com DEALER Hailun Pianos
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Ryan, I appreciate your initiative in posting this topic. I think it is extremely worthwhile to get perspective of those who aren't PTG members.
I would affirm this to all who are not currently PTG members. Please keep your comments coming. For me, PTG has been a very good thing and I believe it's existence is the result of many who have made selfless contributions . However, in no way do I believe it is at the pinnacle of what it could yet become.
I think the perspective of others is valuable.
Keith Akins, RPT Piano Technologist USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair editor emeritus of Piano Technicians Journal
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Bill you quoted $360.00 to take the exam. Where are the testing expenses? And why are the National dues five times the chapter dues?
"Imagine it in all its primatic colorings, its counterpart in our souls - our souls that are great pianos whose strings, of honey and of steel, the divisions of the rainbow set twanging, loosing on the air great novels of adventure!" - William Carlos Williams
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Bill you quoted $360.00 to take the exam. Where are the testing expenses? And why are the National dues five times the chapter dues? There certainly are costs involved with exam administration even though the examiners do not receive even a portion of the fee. If the examiners incur expenses such as for travel and lodging, they get those expenses reimbursed but they get no money for their time. So, that accounts for some of what exam fees go for. There are forms, there is Home Office staff who receive and forward the documents. There are the documents themselves. The exams are provided at annual conventions. The pianos used in the exams are donated but there are moving costs. The rooms at the hotels must be paid for. Chapters or exam sites known as Regional Exam Boards aside from convention receive half the fees. That money goes into the Chapter or Board treasury to pay exam expenses. The technical exam requires a lot of equipment. The tuning exam requires a specially made device for the stability test. While the Chapters and Exam Boards may possibly take in more than they spend, they can use the funds for other purposes such as their continuing education or to sponsor a technician in need. A review of the PTG budget will show that the exam fees only partially offset the total expenses incurred by offering exams. I also welcome non-members comments but I do have to say that very often, the reasons I hear or read from non-members or members who do not want to be tested are irrational and sometimes paranoid. A not for profit organization does not engage in a "money grab", for example. PTG does not try in any way to exclude people who want to join. PTG does not run ads that denigrate or disparage non members or its Associate members. If one concludes that PTG which is a professional Association of Registered Piano Technicians denigrates other technicians by simply promoting its own registered members, that is all in one's own mind. Ford does not say that Chevy's are "no good and can't be trusted" for example by promoting its own products and emphasizing what they believe to be the superiority of their products. The reference to the Mafia is way out of line, in my opinion. No wonder that person feels he has to hide his identity. I certainly have never heard of and it is nowhere in the bylaws that any person who drops from membership has the option of paying back dues rather than being tested again in order to regain the RPT title. That is NOT PTG policy. If someone really told such a person that they could regain RPT status simply by paying money to PTG, the person who said that had no foundation in the rules or bylaws of PTG.
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My perception is that the organization while striving for higher standards in the profession, is not doing enough to encourage apprenticeships, or to feed smaller communities with capable concert level techs, to maintain fine pianos.
I am glad, however, that the exam requires tuners to tune by ear.. and not rely on the machine. Thank you for that.
Also the business of grandfathering in people who 'were there back at the beginning" and might not have ample skills in the present, is somewhat disturbing because it may impact the care of pianos, of particular worth.
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My perception is that the organization while striving for higher standards in the profession, is not doing enough to encourage apprenticeships, or to feed smaller communities with capable concert level techs, to maintain fine pianos.....
.....Also the business of grandfathering in people who 'were there back at the beginning" and might not have ample skills in the present, is somewhat disturbing because it may impact the care of pianos, of particular worth. I wonder how prevalent these misconceptions are. Associations of the nature of the guild are basically a bunch of guys and gals that get together once a month, each for their own reasons, and do much to promote skills in their profession and deal with any internal political matters that might arise. They have absolutely no control over who does what in the piano tuning profession, many recognised concert tuners are not members, nor is membership any condition of gaining employment at that level of expertise. Becoming proficient has nothing to do with membership but attending meetings is a valuable resource for anybody wishing to learn the profession. While it is one of the few ways that piano techs can prove their basic attainments, the word 'Guild' should never be confused with the European medieval guilds that did have absolute control over their professions. Losing ones faculties through age has nothng to do with continuous holding of membership or readmission. All members will eventually lose their abilities, as will non members. Part of the function of a healthy guild chapter is the encouragement of students. Any chapter that doesn't or is in other ways exclusionary is destined to become a typical old boys club. I think, by now, the story of the local chapter of alcoholics anonymous that reverted to being a drinking club because they ran out of prospects to convert. I remember that, at the dizzying height of chapter president, I attended a national meeting as a deligate only to find out that a former national president was receiving, or about to receive a pension for life. What came of this?
Amanda Reckonwith Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England. "in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.
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I think your reply to my quote starts with a miss-interpretation Just to let you know that I've attended a few local PTG Guild meetings here in Fresno, and in fact interviewed one of your very capable members, and seminar presenters, Laroy Edwards. Certainly the aspect of lifting standards through education not only within your member ranks but also having a better window to the public (those who own pianos and not DPS) might be a suggestible path at the level of your PTG Board members --The National President of the Guild etc. and those you have elected. (at the national level) As a piano teacher who owns four pianos, one of which is not at the level of the others by any means as showcased in set of current videos, if I am struggling to maintain three fine instruments because of a dearth of local capable technicians at the level of regulation, voicing etc. then perhaps as a suggestion for developing and proliferating a force of techs who don't just say, I tune but don't regulate and the rest, then your NATIONAL reps ought to look into paths to remedy the situation. Certainly the Guild in whatever path it takes at the local level should not operate in a vacuum as far as the greater community of piano owners is concerned. Just the fact that so many people buy the digital pianos, is one indication that piano maintenance of a decent level has become harder to achieve.. And we all know that there are cost related reasons as well for the DP ownership trend that have nothing to do with piano maintenance per se. Basically PTG, as the umbrella organization should have some seminars related to educating the public about the needs of pianos, while at the CONVENTIONS they should start taking a hard look at the "Vanishing Piano Technician" and what that means. Great article by concert pianist, James Boyk. When Kendall Brown retired his life was dramatically changed. When Al Ellis, retired here in Fresno back in the 80's many of us Steinway grand owners were seriously impacted. My tragedy was memorialized in the Piano Quarterly.
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But, in truth, getting a large body of people who tested for RPT status to ever agree that another membership alongside for those not interested in RPT status is possible, is never going to happen.
That is why, early in this thread, I suggested replacing the annual council with an expanded board of directors. The 400 RPT's at council do not represent everybody in the PTG, as some chapters can't or don't send anyone. No one in my chapter has gone to council since I went, about 5 years ago, so our chapter has not been represented recently. A good board of directors can establish the direction for the PTG in a way that membership increases, taking into account the suggestions from the membership, but always focused on what is good for the future of all.
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- The PTG makes paid advertisements against non-RPT's, trying to convince the public that they should only hire an RPT. Although it may be a good initial guideline for people to go by, trying to tell the public that a non-RPT is not to be trusted is deceitful as well as a mafia mentality. There are various skill levels of technicians both members and non members. I sympathize with this. RPT certification is NO guarantee, for sure, of capability and excellence. Thank you for posting. "THE VOICES of Piano Technicians around the country" http://arioso7.wordpress.com/2012/03/13/26291/
Last edited by music32; 03/14/12 09:43 AM.
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Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:34 PM
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